tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post1299776351773658196..comments2024-03-18T17:03:17.871-05:00Comments on Augoeides: Etsy Bans Non-Christian Magical ItemsScott Stenwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-9323123953032876502015-06-30T22:22:15.245-05:002015-06-30T22:22:15.245-05:00If you don't want to list on Etsy anymore, you...If you don't want to list on Etsy anymore, you can always try indiemade.com. A lot of people who were banned from Etsy have moved over there so they can sell their stuff and they are very happy with it. I may have to do that too here shortly!Tammyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17253881603329649068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-73032696100265263942015-06-23T19:38:27.448-05:002015-06-23T19:38:27.448-05:00If your looking for metaphysical items try bonanza...If your looking for metaphysical items try bonanza.com which is a site kind of like etsy or ebay. Its a safe place for these sellers to go and have begun to move as an option.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15565790751614269383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-37185589895884221492015-06-23T10:07:48.196-05:002015-06-23T10:07:48.196-05:00I also just added a note to the effect that I now ...I also just added a note to the effect that I now think a boycott is a bad idea directly following those comments, in case folks don't read all the way to the end. It may very well be that the point of this policy is to drive "metaphysical items" off the site, so in addition to hurting sellers a boycott might be playing right into their hands.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-88445357698289971902015-06-23T09:41:02.062-05:002015-06-23T09:41:02.062-05:00I honestly had no idea this post would generate so...I honestly had no idea this post would generate so much attention, so it seems to me that the only way I could have put it up as a "stab at notoriety" is if I could see the future. All I'm calling for at this point is for the company to clarify the new policy and apply it fairly.<br /><br />In the initial post I brought up the possibility of a boycott, but as I mentioned in the updates the subsequent discussion convinced me that it was a bad idea. You're right that something like that would only hurt the sellers and do little to the company's profits. I do think, though, that bringing negative attention to this particular policy could still force them to rethink or revise it.<br /><br />The reason I'm engaging in such speculation in the first place is pretty simple - the Facebook real names policy. Facebook rolled it out slowly, and by the time people really started taking notice it was already in place and established. In this case, my thought was that if the negative publicity had started at the beginning it might have done some good by forcing the company to rethink what it was rolling out.<br /><br />Just as an aside - why can't my serious magick posts generate this sort of attention? I mean, I appreciate it and all, but so far the only stories from this blog that have gone semi-viral are this post and that stupid one debunking the woman who was kidnapped by elves.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-60015726096195396702015-06-23T04:08:47.584-05:002015-06-23T04:08:47.584-05:00You have a lot of exaggerated claims and falsehood...You have a lot of exaggerated claims and falsehoods here. I mean, good for you for stirring the pot. But all your "seems to" and "appears to" and "could possibly be"s amount to the fact that you've just ginned up a lot of innuendo. And that hurts people. It doesn't particularly hurt Etsy...there are enough people buying baby sweaters and Doctor Who tchotchkes to keep them afloat. But it DOES hurt the very people you are concern-trolling the interwebz to "help". People will quit shopping for those items on Etsy and those sellers are out. <br /><br />Seeing as you don't even shop there it seems to me as if this is really just a ploy to make yourself visible. And the fact that you are taking a stab at notoriety by hurting people's income is wholly distasteful. Kat Coblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989208841608754591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-4694790879083625522015-06-22T23:50:50.182-05:002015-06-22T23:50:50.182-05:00That sounds like a great idea to me. A marketplace...That sounds like a great idea to me. A marketplace specifically set up for metaphysical items of whatever sort would prevent folks from getting caught by these policy changes.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-87600343379878869992015-06-22T22:26:31.849-05:002015-06-22T22:26:31.849-05:00Perhaps it is time to create our own alternative M...Perhaps it is time to create our own alternative Market Place?Kerigwenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03759795732780650297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-55135483884937220822015-06-22T19:29:12.876-05:002015-06-22T19:29:12.876-05:00There is a petition that you can sign here opposin...There is a petition that you can sign here opposing the policy:<br /><br />http://www.thepetitionsite.com/119/273/851/stop-etsys-ban-on-metaphysical-items/<br /><br />One of the differences that I would cite between spells and prayers is that spells always have some result in mind, whereas not all prayers necessarily do. But for the purposes of "metaphysical claims" I see them as essentially the same the moment said prayer is directed towards producing some particular result.<br /><br />By that logic, Etsy should either ban both targeted prayer and spells or ban neither if it wants to avoid being discriminatory.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-91242894826043407372015-06-22T17:58:44.993-05:002015-06-22T17:58:44.993-05:00Petition?!
This is illegal religious discriminati...Petition?!<br /><br />This is illegal religious discrimination.<br /><br />A spell is a religious activity in MY religion, Paganism.<br /><br />A prayer is a religious activity in other religions such as Christianity. <br /><br />A spell and a prayer are similar but NOT the same.Mamma2004https://www.blogger.com/profile/02676633045332858256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-77533906612063855322015-06-22T14:38:20.036-05:002015-06-22T14:38:20.036-05:00I'm a Etsy vendor who received notice from th...I'm a Etsy vendor who received notice from them that they were changing my listings, They said in the very same email that they support diversity of religion. This is the usual Etsy doublespeak, where they say one thing but do another. Francesca De Grandis AKA Outlaw Bunnyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14769274420890838582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-31434486264926968702015-06-22T13:58:23.255-05:002015-06-22T13:58:23.255-05:00Right, the idea that a spell is somehow determinis...Right, the idea that a spell is somehow deterministic and a prayer is not fundamentally makes no sense to anybody who is an experienced magical practitioner. But popular culture has pushed the notion that spells are like Harry Potter or something and just work.<br /><br />Calling upon a spirit to protect the wearer of its talisman is no different than calling upon a saint to protect a person who wears his medal. It doesn't always work, and the spirit has agency just like a saint or deity would and can refuse to comply with your charge.<br /><br />Basically, mainstream religious practitioners want to pray for specific material goals without having to admit they're doing the exact same thing magicians are. This is even true of extreme examples practiced by certain fundamentalist groups.<br /><br />Look up "imprecatory prayer" if you want to see an example of what I can only call dark sorcery cast in these sorts of religious terms. Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-1631766678013031772015-06-22T13:47:55.584-05:002015-06-22T13:47:55.584-05:00Scott, thank you for a well written article. Like ...Scott, thank you for a well written article. Like you I don't shop etsy, however, it is in my interest as a business person and pagan. I agree with all the points you bring up. <br />Part of the problem is trying to maintain the lie that prayer is petition. It can be, just like some spell work, but like all spell work they only work when your desire is specific but leaves the mechanical to the spirit(s) and there are many examples of 'prayers' that violate the ethical standards of most practitioners of spells by directly attacking the free will of others. "God, I pray that soandso's heart is turned from wickedness that they see the truth of your love" it sounds benign until you realize the requirements of that "love." steeldragohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13726804816418609288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-64943425071591109952015-06-22T13:17:55.190-05:002015-06-22T13:17:55.190-05:00Okay, after reading over your post here is where y...Okay, after reading over your post here is where you and I completely disagree:<br /><br />"Furthermore, the practice of Witchcraft isn’t a religion to begin with – except in very rare circumstances within very specific religions and traditions."<br /><br />As I see it, spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs are the same thing. If you believe that a spirit is connected with a talisman that you are selling, or that a Saint is, I think those are both religious. You apparently don't. Since we don't see eye to eye on this, it makes perfect sense that you wouldn't see any of this as possible religious discrimination.<br /><br />Also, are you somehow under the impression that Wicca is not a religion? Most of the complaints I've seen so far have been from Wiccans, and I certainly consider Wicca a religious tradition. In my experience most people at this point do, even if they don't agree with its tenets. <br /><br />For the record, I'm fine with (A) Etsy prohibiting the sale of trivial items to get around the ban on services, and (B) Etsy cracking down on scammers who are spouting nonsense like "this candle will cure cancer!" and so forth. I also appreciate their clarification of the proper wording for listings.<br /><br />However, having to change "spell kit" to "prayer kit?" That's just ridiculous, since it doesn't change anything as far a "metaphysical claim" goes. And it's a kit - a collection of items. Not a service.<br /><br />It's very possible that this policy will wind up changing very little about how the site operates, and as it is rolled out it will be applied to mainstream religious items as well. In fact, the cynical part of me thinks that this is more likely to happen precisely because of all the pushback, including my own.<br /><br />As I said at the outset, that's all I'm hoping to accomplish - consistent rules, and consistent enforcement for everyone, regardless of their spiritual path or beliefsScott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-2557062189189308132015-06-22T12:45:32.042-05:002015-06-22T12:45:32.042-05:00Oy. https://songofthefirebird.wordpress.com/2015/0...Oy. https://songofthefirebird.wordpress.com/2015/06/22/etsys-new-policy-changes-and-why-everyone-needs-to-calm-their-tits/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-57248369088949438032015-06-22T08:42:23.792-05:002015-06-22T08:42:23.792-05:001. I do get that, as I pointed out in my second up...1. I do get that, as I pointed out in my second update. I know that Etsy does have a history of people selling trivial items to get around the ban on services.<br /><br />2. If that's what sellers need to do to get around the ban, that's fine with me. So then saying "witches believe that xxx is associated with yyy" is okay? It sounds to me like that's not the case, but I could be wrong. That statement should be no different than "St. Christopher is commonly prayed to for protection."<br /><br />3. A prayer that is made with the intent to produce a physical effect is the same as a spell for purposes of Etsy's stated goal. It's a paranormal claim. This is what I mean by the policy being too broad a brush, and also what I mean by mainstream religion getting a pass on metaphysical claims. Whether a deity, spirit, or random entity of some other sort is accomplishing the paranormal effect, it's still a paranormal effect.<br /><br />4. Obviously Etsy should not be liable for such claims. But I was under the impression that the "for entertainment only" and so forth disclaimers accomplished prior to the implementation of this policy.<br /><br />5. Really? Show me one. And by "one" I'm talking about a mainstream religious item that makes paranormal claims, not something that's basically occult but happens to refer to angels or God or whatever. I don't mean to be obtuse, but I have yet to see anything like that with respect to this new policy.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-14358478726946715342015-06-22T04:32:44.593-05:002015-06-22T04:32:44.593-05:00spell/prayer/magick/eucharist/ritual/christ/druid/...spell/prayer/magick/eucharist/ritual/christ/druid/.…… dang you all are letting words get in the way of believing in something….. chill !!Mark A. O'Blazneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11322821438266439471noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-76511968587837616772015-06-22T02:39:55.953-05:002015-06-22T02:39:55.953-05:00-rubs temples- oh for fuck's sake.
1. They wa...-rubs temples- oh for fuck's sake.<br /><br />1. They want to be a place that offers items. Not services. Writing or casting a spell is a service. Selling a spell kit to cast a spell /yourself/ is an item. The first is now banned. The second is not and is still sellable with the proper word and terminology changes if necessary. <br /><br />2. It's literally about the wording and terminology you use. Selling a medallion of Saint Christopher with the description saying "he is commonly prayed to for protection" is a lot different than saying "this exact medallion has been blessed and will protect you". Likewise, a listing saying "and will comfort you knowing that the Patron Saint of Safe Travels is taking care of your safety." is a lot different than saying "this exact medalion will protect you". The former does /not/ ascribe the protection properties to the medallion itself (only the feeling of comfort), the later /does/.<br /><br />3. No, spells and prayers are not even close to being the same thing. Prayers are petitioning a deity to intercede on your behalf. A Spell may or may not (but usually does not) do so. In other words, /some/ spells are prayers, BUT ONLY when they specifically ask the universe and / or a divine figure to do something for you... And most spells don't.<br /><br />4. Magical results cannot be scientifically measured or validated for proof. It's a liability issue if seller A sells someone the service of selling X spell ceremony, and buyer B decides "i didn't get the exact result I wanted, so obviously they didn't do the spell at all for me and they're a liar". This shit would literally /not fly/ in any other place for any other product- but we are expecting companies to bend over backwards to cater for us.<br /><br />5. This applies to /all/ magical and spiritual services, not /just/ Pagan ones. Several Christian items have also been taken down. It's currently impacting the Pagan community more because /we/ are the community who currently "sells" the most of these types of things affected by the ban, but it is not specific only to /us/.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-20619109558390154602015-06-21T23:09:00.683-05:002015-06-21T23:09:00.683-05:00I am the vendor that Etsy told to change 'Arch...I am the vendor that Etsy told to change 'Archangel Protection Spell Kit' to ‘Archangel Protection PRAYER Kit’. I have screen shots I can email you of before and after pics of the listing and I kept emails from Etsy Admins. that took 37 of my listings down if they had the word "spell" in them. Even if the listing did not promise a certain outcome. I had "spell" boxes listed, I had to change them from "spell" boxes to alter boxes. The items that come in the box can be used to perform a spell if the customer chose to do so but did not promise anything specific. The listings for these boxes were reinstated after I changed them to "Alter" boxes. I definitely have proof Etsy is discriminating! <br />AmethystAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16052658044963633813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-23435419221385519002015-06-21T22:20:45.355-05:002015-06-21T22:20:45.355-05:00Those of us who've had our stores shut down al...Those of us who've had our stores shut down also put great effort, time, sweat and money into our crafted items. Religious discrimination should not be tolerated by anyone, even those of you so fortunate as to be outside the line of fire...this time.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540653404840646682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-91054691853636945382015-06-21T21:43:09.246-05:002015-06-21T21:43:09.246-05:00That would not benefit the sellers!! Many of us wh...That would not benefit the sellers!! Many of us who are Etsy sellers put great effort, time, sweat and money into our crafted items!Drezdany Wildlifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16154404088719509901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-81978240076522094892015-06-21T17:27:11.047-05:002015-06-21T17:27:11.047-05:00Some of my favorite purveyors of items I use in my...Some of my favorite purveyors of items I use in my spiritual practice are on Etsy, and rely on Etsy for their livelihood. Etsy won't be harmed any time soon by an uncoordinated boycott of limited numbers of people, however some folks will not be able to make enough money to stay afloat.hekateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05248476836969662392noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-58621252864711140722015-06-21T16:45:22.088-05:002015-06-21T16:45:22.088-05:00Time to start a boycott on all things etsy; see h...Time to start a boycott on all things etsy; see how long that shit lasts!!!Draco Dark Matter's Denhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17869882280227101222noreply@blogger.com