tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post4332189444774217034..comments2024-03-25T14:09:59.347-05:00Comments on Augoeides: The Greater Ritual of the PentagramScott Stenwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comBlogger101125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-55376045935127157102024-01-20T04:41:29.064-06:002024-01-20T04:41:29.064-06:00Thank you for that explanation Scott!
/FreiThank you for that explanation Scott!<br />/FreiH.S.H. Prince Frei of Lorenzburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06097901521242597416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-28526681324874740522024-01-17T10:27:25.812-06:002024-01-17T10:27:25.812-06:00I do not necessarily know how the sign is done in ...I do not necessarily know how the sign is done in the Golden Dawn. But according to Crowley's Liber O, they are the same sign in the A.'.A.'. system. The A.'.A.'. system maps elements onto the sephiroth from Netzach through Malkuth and use the grade signs for those sephiroth as the signs for both elements and grades. I was under the impression that the Golden Dawn did something similar, but as I'm not an initiate I'm not sure.<br /><br />OTO has different grade signs and only uses the A.'.A.'. grade signs for the elements as shown here. Also, my understanding is that there are some minor differences between these signs as given in Liber O (which is what I use) versus the ones found in Regardie's Golden Dawn material. That could account for why the descriptions don't match.<br /><br />Also - in the GRP the signs simply correspond to the elements, not the sephiroth matching the grades. The way I map it out the elements are in Malkuth, then Moon in Yesod, Mercury in Hod, and Venus in Netzach. To me that makes a lot more sense, given that the elements map to qualities of the physical world.<br /> Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-36476932934596671642024-01-13T07:16:39.936-06:002024-01-13T07:16:39.936-06:00Hi Scott,
I know you've repeatedly mentioned t...Hi Scott,<br />I know you've repeatedly mentioned that you aren't an initiate of the Golden Dawn, but I think you have such good general knowledge of magic that I hope you could clarify something. It's regarding the sign of the Zelator and the "Sign of the earth" (Set) as given in the GIRP in Malkuth. Are they the same? I've only seen the Zelator sign described in writing once, and it seems rather different from the earth sign. And seeing that the other signs in GIRP Malkuth correspond to different grade signs... well it made me wonder.<br />Thank you kindly Scott.H.S.H. Prince Frei of Lorenzburghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06097901521242597416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-55103910999276183252023-06-08T10:47:27.849-05:002023-06-08T10:47:27.849-05:00Thanks!!!Thanks!!!Lazaronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872516511961083452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-73223024507741661242023-06-07T18:30:11.665-05:002023-06-07T18:30:11.665-05:00I would not expect this sort of visualization to b...I would not expect this sort of visualization to be a problem or issue in terms of probability shift. In fact, usually having an ongoing connection and relationship with a spirit like this will increase the effectiveness of working with that particular spirit. Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-9543881542853329842023-06-07T13:51:12.748-05:002023-06-07T13:51:12.748-05:00Thank you so much!!!
About "okay",
I w...Thank you so much!!!<br /><br />About "okay", <br />I was having in mind this: is it okay that in order to increase probability shift about which you write in your books, that "spirits can use magicians (for ex.) visualization", and magician in return can "visualize those particualr spirits ", and all that is after ritual? I hope it is clearer. Regards.Lazaronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872516511961083452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-61259041635128215672023-06-07T13:07:27.590-05:002023-06-07T13:07:27.590-05:001-2. Keep in mind that I base the energy work I do...1-2. Keep in mind that I base the energy work I do on Qigong rather than the Indian yogic system that Crowley worked with. Because of that, Lon probably does vibration and the like a little different than I do because he works with the same system that Crowley did. My guess is that the emphasis on nostrils comes from the ida-pingala idea of nostril breathing that isn't used in Qigong but is very important in the yogic system.<br /><br />I do it like this. First, I touch my tongue to the roof of my mouth and breathe in through my nostrils. As I do this, I visualize the name filling up my energetic body as my lungs fill with air. Then, I vibrate the name through my mouth. In Qigong, the idea is that the tongue touched to the roof of the mouth forms a "circuit" that contains energy and when that circuit is broken the energy escapes - or in this case is shaped by the tongue into the name along with the energetic component of "pushing" the name outward.<br /><br />Probably my vibrations and Lon's don't sound the same. I will tell you that what I do works well even though it comes from a different energy work tradition.<br /><br />3. Yes. I do this as part of my daily practice.<br /><br />4. Yes, although the Greater Ritual of the Pentagram is simpler. You would modify Reguli the same way - for specific elements, do the pentagram, sign, and name corresponding that one element to all four quarters. The version with all four elements is attributed to Malkuth, just like with the GRP.<br /><br />5. How do you mean "okay?" If you mean that after an operation you notice things happening in line with your charge, that should be expected. That's what you charged the spirit to do, after all. If nothing was going to happen, there wouldn't be much point in doing magick. Likewise, odd synchronicities that you experience after an operation are often good signs that it is working even if they don't necessarily relate directly to your charge. So I think that means it's "okay," if I'm understanding your question.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-8001201489576423292023-06-07T11:45:29.528-05:002023-06-07T11:45:29.528-05:00Hi Scott, how are you?
1.Lon Milo Duquette said th...Hi Scott, how are you?<br />1.Lon Milo Duquette said that he vibrated words through "nostrils" following Crowleys description how to vibrate words from Liber O. But they both don't mention if they actually make the sound of the word with their mouths, only they expel word with out breath through nostrils. What is your opinion about that, do they make actual sound vibration, and how do you do it?<br />2. Does vibration must be expelled through nostrils as Crowley said?<br />3. Can Crowleys Elevenfold seal can be used separately kinda as Middle Pillar exercise?<br />4. Is it possible that complete Liber V Reguli can be used as Greater Ritual of Pentagram, with same function?<br />5. After spirits are sent to do their work, is it okay that one actually feels their magical action in ones life, spontaneous visualization or manifestation of goal, etc.?<br />Regards<br />Lazaronehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00872516511961083452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-62408590418048925852023-04-27T16:41:11.180-05:002023-04-27T16:41:11.180-05:00The Greater Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram for M...The Greater Invoking Ritual of the Pentagram for Malkuth (the version with all four elements) can be done as a daily practice in preparation for the full HGA invocation of Liber Samekh, which is what my Path of Initiation article is based on.<br /><br />The magical power associated Malkuth is "The vision of the Holy Guardian Angel or of Adonai." Cultivating this vision will help when you start doing the full HGA invocation for Knowledge and Conversation, which is not the same thing as the vision cultivated with this version of the GRP.<br /><br />So this version of the GRP is a preparation for the HGA invocation, not a replacement for it.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-83750027045171968872023-04-26T21:23:18.403-05:002023-04-26T21:23:18.403-05:00Is this daily ritual supposed to be done in conjun...Is this daily ritual supposed to be done in conjunction with the path of initiation (2017 article) or as an alternative?Joe Legauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07020136577123752322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-87535311909646543942023-04-26T20:41:13.279-05:002023-04-26T20:41:13.279-05:00I see the daily HGA ritual here and also the path ...I see the daily HGA ritual here and also the path of initiation article from 2017. Does this daily one lead to the other one, or are they two options?Joe Legauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07020136577123752322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-19512933749596308022023-02-25T04:33:19.048-06:002023-02-25T04:33:19.048-06:00Thanks, Scott,
I'll likely stick to your met...Thanks, Scott, <br /><br />I'll likely stick to your method, which gives me far better results.<br /><br />Regards!<br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-41900634953858866292023-02-24T14:36:12.630-06:002023-02-24T14:36:12.630-06:00There are two ways to do the pentagrams. My method...There are two ways to do the pentagrams. My method, which I write about here, is to vibrate the godname at the same time as I trace and visualize the pentagram. Then, in the case of the Greater Pentagram, I give the elemental sign.<br /><br />The other way to do it is what you are talking about here. With that method, you do the pentagrams like this:<br /><br />1. Trace the pentagram in front of you.<br />2. Vibrate godname and step forward with the Sign of the Enterer.<br />3. Step back and give the Sign of Silence.<br />4. (Greater Pentagram only) Give the sign of the element.<br /><br />Both of these methods are viable and work fine. As far as I can tell, it's more a matter of which one you prefer and which one seems to work best for you. Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-79650998994648994762023-02-23T15:25:31.596-06:002023-02-23T15:25:31.596-06:00Hey Scott,
Recently, I noticed some sources inclu...Hey Scott, <br />Recently, I noticed some sources include the 'sign of the enterer' before rending the veil and/or the LVX for the spirit pentagrams signs, such as before assuming the god forms for the elemental ones in SIRP/GIRP. I know your post doesn't include that, but I decided to ask whether you think that's necessary. I'll be happy if you answer.<br /><br />Kind Regards!<br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-49877317881043068902022-12-16T12:54:40.527-06:002022-12-16T12:54:40.527-06:00You are welcome. Just as a point, I have to modera...You are welcome. Just as a point, I have to moderate comments on here so you do not need to post multiple copies of the same comment when it doesn't show up immediately. Sometimes I don't get around to moderating for a few days if I have other stuff going on.<br /><br />The weird thing is that later in life, Regardie went along with the Ciceros and started spelling it. I don't understand how he didn't notice that it was less effective.<br /><br />The number of syllables in the words, especially between the Hebrew and Enochian, is coincidental. You can pronounce YHVH as Ye-ho-wah or as Yah-weh without affecting the ritual much - it just has to be pronounced as a word. You see the big drop in effectiveness when you switch to spelling.<br /><br />I pronounce all the Tablet of Union names as two-syllable words:<br /><br />EX-ARP<br />HCO-MAH<br />BEE-TOM<br />NAN-TAH<br /><br />The Golden Dawn system inserts extra syllables that are not necessary.<br />Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-42420222128034675192022-12-11T04:57:23.057-06:002022-12-11T04:57:23.057-06:00Hey! Once more, thank you so much for the valuable...Hey! Once more, thank you so much for the valuable information!<br /> <br />Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Now, as I became mindful of it, I found spelling YHVH makes the rites noticeably "less potent." I also recalled Regardie vibrating Jehova on all those old GD tapes. Plus, when you actually do the vibration of the whole word in each quadrangle everything feels smooth; a smooth transitioning from one three-syllable word to another three-syllable etc. Despite whether you'll start with ADNI or YHVH, etc. <br /><br />Either way actually spelling "YUD HEY VAV HEY" feels as if the whole chain is broken, as if the flow has been altered, no matter where you vibrate it. Now, I recognize YHVH as also better matching with EXARP from the Tablet of Union, as some people recommend reading it "EXARPEY" (or something) which is also three-syllable word. <br /><br />I understand what you mean about SIRP and GD Enochian, so thanks again and sorry to bother you with that stuff.<br /><br />Thanks!<br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-33894679535152706672022-12-07T15:35:38.978-06:002022-12-07T15:35:38.978-06:00What you are asking about here with the SRP is whe...What you are asking about here with the SRP is whether I would recommend making a specific modification to a ritual that I do not practice, using attributions from the Golden Dawn Enochian system, which I also do not practice. Given that, the bottom line is that I really have no idea how well what you are proposing would work. You probably just have to try it and see.<br /><br />As far as the "less effective" bit goes, I have a theory, but I haven't checked with anyone to confirm. Several of the Golden Dawn orders are "spellers." That is, they vibrate YHVH as "YOD-HEH-VAV-HEH" instead of YAHWEH or YEHOWA or any other single-word pronunciation. Going from pronouncing as a word to spelling is one of the easiest ways to make your LRP work poorly, and I have no idea why they teach it that way when it's really not that hard to verify by checking probability shifts. So if somebody got a "correction" that got them spelling, their LRP would likely have indeed not worked as well as before they started doing it that way.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-39503035330158563372022-12-07T13:34:14.648-06:002022-12-07T13:34:14.648-06:00Hey, I hope all is well!
Thank you for this thorou...Hey, I hope all is well!<br />Thank you for this thorough answer! I really appreciate your wisdom and time!<br /><br />Orders/Models<br />Yes, I am getting pretty good results using the density order. Indeed, I get the most barely noticeable probability shift when using LBRP + LBRH, so I never mess with it. I tried the operant and invoking fields before switching to the 'density' order but used it sparingly. So I can't speak about that. I'll probably experiment with it in the future and let you know. As far as SIRP, that's precisely how I started practicing. <br /><br />SIRP<br />Some sources insist on calling on the Archangels again as you do SIRP. This, however, doesn't make much sense to me as you already called on them with LIRP when setting the field. So I wondered if I could do something similar with the Seniors instead if I have the tablets with SIRP? There's a modified OBW on the internet that does something similar using the Sigil of Truth instead of the elemental weapons. <br /><br />Egregors <br />What you say about egregors makes solid sense. And I wonder how those folks' magick became less effective after they got initiated into the system they already practiced.<br /><br />Once more, thank you so much! <br />I look forward to reading more of your content.<br /><br />Kind Regards!<br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-23486503181461427862022-12-03T13:40:32.099-06:002022-12-03T13:40:32.099-06:00Almost everybody gets a big improvement from LBRP/...Almost everybody gets a big improvement from LBRP/LBRH when they go with the operant field, whether they use density order for the elements or not. Did you try it the way I do it before switching to the density model? If not, you might want to try both versions and compare.<br /><br />But by all means, my first rule is that if it works it works. There's nothing inherently wrong with using a density-based elemental order.<br /><br />I can't really speak to that feeling. I get best results using winds for in my LRP and zodiac for my LRH, as I explain above. I wouldn't say that putting together versions of the OBW and SRP is impossible without using Golden Dawn directions and so forth, but if you don't do them that way they do require some modification. I found that my Enochian OBW wasn't bad in any way, but it also wasn't very effective - which is why I abandoned it years ago. I haven't worked with the SRP at all, so I can't give you any practical insight on that one.<br /><br />I'm not convinced that the "egregore effect" is very significant, and if it isn't, extended history might not be very relevant. Some Golden Dawn folks years ago were claiming that you had to be a GD initiate for rituals like the LRP to work properly because when you're an initiate you are connected to the GD egregore. So I did a survey - I asked if anybody who read this blog, anyone at all, had the experience of (1) doing LRP, LRH, etc. as a solitary practitioner, (2) were initiated into a Golden Dawn group, and then (3) found that their LRP, LRH, etc. suddenly became more powerful and effective. If there really is a powerful "egregore effect," that should be what people experience.<br /><br />But not one person did. Several people claimed that they were initiated into a GD group and their rituals became LESS effective. That's probably spurious - I really don't see how being initiated into a tradition would detract from the effectiveness of your rituals, but it was clear that it didn't add anything for folks who read the post. So I have no experimental evidence that the "egregore effect" even exists.<br /><br />So if you wanted to use density with the LRP, all that would entail is switching the order of the archangels. The godnames used with the lesser pentagrams are not elemental, so they would stay the same. The LRH already used the zodiac order as written, so no problem there.<br /><br />For the Malkuth version of the GRP (the version with all four elements) I don't see why it would be a problem to change the directions. For the single-element version of the GRP, you trace the pentagram of that element to all four directions so there would be no change there. Likewise, with the GRH, you are tracing the hexagram of the single planet or sign to all four directions, so again, there would be no changes.<br /><br />All that being said, that's how you would do it - but I also haven't experimented myself with making those changes to the pentagram rituals. So while I can explain what you would do, I don't have any experimental data on how effective it will be. Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-53764810519934804242022-12-03T02:52:53.211-06:002022-12-03T02:52:53.211-06:00Hey, thank you so much for this thorough answer! Y...Hey, thank you so much for this thorough answer! Your blog is a really remarkable encyclopedia for practical occultism. If one wants to learn, they don't really need books. They'll be fine just by reading your blog!<br /><br />I'll definitely consider what you say. Nonetheless, I wouldn't say I'm not getting results by using the density model. In fact, I actually started getting results when I stopped doing the traditional GD LBRP LBRH sequence and adopted the techniques of Invoking and Operant Fields I learned from you, but with a 'density' model. Doing that, I get my best results using the invoking field. <br /><br />Deep within me, I always felt I shouldn't have elements clashing in the circle. I also feel that aligns better with the mystical tablet of union, liber resh, the actual elemental attributions within the GD pentagram, and the prayer 'on dry land, and in the water, of whirling air and of rushing fire.' Speaking of that, is doing OBW or SIRP with the tablets only possible and thus effective if you use the GD directions of the watchtowers?<br /><br />On the other hand, using the most extended history makes more sense, as you are tapping into the egregor of all the people who use the technique. <br /><br />Lastly, can one use the density for pentagrams, i.e., (LRP, SRP/GRP, OBW) and zodiacal for hexagrams (LRH, GRH, etc.)? I'd be happy to know what you think of that too.<br /><br />Regards!<br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-28534232840789565912022-12-01T16:47:29.030-06:002022-12-01T16:47:29.030-06:00There are two traditional models for the direction...There are two traditional models for the directions, the winds model and the zodiac model. The winds model is microcosmic and the zodiac model is macrocosmic. They are different, but also complementary. Neither is superior - both have their specific attributions.<br /><br />As far as the mutual quality / density order model you are talking about, you will find that I go with a version of that model in my Enochian work but generally do not use it elsewhere. I use it in the Enochian system because it seems to be the best model for the quadrants of the Watchtowers based on my research in the Dee diaries. Outside the Enochian system, though, I use combinations of the winds and zodiac models. They have a long history of use in the tradition.<br /><br />I messed around with an Enochian version of the Opening by Watchtower that was somewhat similar to what you are talking about here. It's published in my books, but subsequent research seemed to show that it wasn't very effective and I no longer use it in my personal work. It's a very elaborate structure that seems to have little effect on the probability shift produced by rituals that use the operant field. As far as the SRP goes, you probably could hack something like that together. However, the SRP isn't used in the Thelemic tradition so I haven't done anything with it in decades. Doing that would also involve working with the Golden Dawn Enochian attributions, which I personally don't use.<br /><br />Eshelman and Shoemaker's idea that you should line up the directions in the LRP and LRH is as far as I can tell completely misguided, or at the very least doesn't work well with the operant field. One of the functions of the operant field is to more effectively merge the microcosm and macrocosm by banishing the former and invoking the latter. For banishing the microcosm, you should use the microcosmic (winds) arrangement. For invoking the macrocosm, you should use the macrocosmic (zodiac) arrangement. Switching either to the other directional system in effect weakens the entire field.<br /><br />It's possible that it might work well with something more like the traditional GD system, such as if you are opening with LBRP/LBRH and then going to the Opening by Watchtower followed by the GRP or GRH. That method as far as I can tell is overall less effective than the operant field, though, despite its greater complexity. So less "bang for buck," so to speak.<br /><br />It also is extremely dismaying to me that Eshelman teaches you should vibrate YHVH as "Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh" rather than "Ye-ho-wah" or "Yah-weh," just like they how they teach it in the Cicero Golden Dawn. Practical experimental work by myself and several other practitioners I know seems to show that this one of the best ways you can weaken your LRP and render it less effective. The LRP is based on fourfold symmetry between the quarters, and therefore the divine names should follow that pattern. If you spell one name and then vibrate the other three as words, that symmetry in the ritual fundamentally breaks from the outset.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-53220054373655531902022-12-01T14:47:40.906-06:002022-12-01T14:47:40.906-06:00Thank you for this fantastic post and all the info...Thank you for this fantastic post and all the information you've been putting out there. Your blog is hands down my favorite place on the internet for practical wisdom. Most importantly, thanks for opening me to the Fields of Operation — one of the things that made such an enormous difference in my practice. <br /><br />I wanted to ask you about your opinion on grouping the elements based on their mutual qualities (Fire in the East, Air in the South, Water in the West, and Earth in the North). More and more people are utilizing and writing about that model, regarding it as superior to the more traditional 'winds' model. Do you think it can find applications in rites like SIRP or OBW?<br /><br />Also, what do you think about using the pentagram directions for hexagram rituals, as recommended by James A. Eshelman and David Shoemaker? <br /><br />I'd be really happy if you answer those questions. <br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />POTBPetehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12854492726017034812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-50634245512847553242022-08-16T01:59:01.651-05:002022-08-16T01:59:01.651-05:00For initiation into Malkuth you use the GIRP - Mal...For initiation into Malkuth you use the GIRP - Malkuth to tune the space for your operation, but it does not constitute an initiation in and of itself. That's an important point to keep in mind.<br /><br />But otherwise, yes, to tune your space for initiation into Yesod you would use the sephirothic form of the GIRH for the Moon. That would be the invoking hexagram of the Moon in purple with the godname Shaddai El Chai.<br /><br />Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-7978315267460787422022-08-15T04:14:47.744-05:002022-08-15T04:14:47.744-05:00@Scott, if the Malkuth version of the GIRP is a fo...@Scott, if the Malkuth version of the GIRP is a form of initiation for Malkuth, with its Vision of the HGA, then which ritual template would be used for initiation into Yesod? Would that include a GIRH for the Moon? Many thanks. master bateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11918712401977473877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-47350280288837445252022-08-11T14:23:48.485-05:002022-08-11T14:23:48.485-05:00There are some people out there who swear by the O...There are some people out there who swear by the Opening by Watchtower and claim to get good results, but I haven't used it myself for many years. I found that even with the various tweaks, it doesn't add anything to the regular operant field (LBRP/LIRH).<br /><br />The way Regardie wrote it is to follow LBRP/LBRH, and I haven't done that since I figured out the operant field, and maybe it works in that context. But LBRP/LIRH works fine and is way shorter to do than LBRP/LBRH/Watchtower.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.com