tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post5750352316634972362..comments2024-03-25T14:09:59.347-05:00Comments on Augoeides: A "Revisionist" ManifestoScott Stenwickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-60440364245304930352011-03-16T04:48:30.120-05:002011-03-16T04:48:30.120-05:00I had to split my comment into two because it was ...I had to split my comment into two because it was like a 100 characters too big. For some reason blogger won't post the first half of my comment, only the second. Hopefully it's just stuck in a spam trap or something. I'll just try posting the whole thing on my own blog I guess.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-61525811612714531822011-03-16T04:45:59.538-05:002011-03-16T04:45:59.538-05:00Finally there is a lot of harm done to the communi...Finally there is a lot of harm done to the community by these people. This sort of leadership breeds more of its kind. People in these groups never become practitioners if they stay with them. After all there isn't anyone there to teach or train them how to actually do magic. If someone like that does show up, they are usually chased out and vilified. If a person tries to learn on their own, they are often told not to, scolded, and possibly vilified themselves. It's an effort which is causing the demagification of Paganism, and threatens to do the same to other paths.<br /><br />And a lot of people who are looking for actual magic end up leaving the community or giving up all together because of groups like these. They looked for magic, and all they found were groups full of non-practitioners who couldn't do magic.<br /><br />As for the superiority thing, I probably misspoke. What I've noticed isn't just a superiority to Christianity, but to all 'older' religions, however I said Christianity because the people I've noticed talking about only seem to know about Christianity, and only a very limited and often prejudiced view of those religions. I've noticed it online and in actual groups, and it wreaks of ignorance of world religions and world history and often times seems like they're sniffing their own farts if you understand the reference :) I could go into more detail about the trend, but I've already gone on too long with this post so I'll save it for another time.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-71858326324450105272011-03-16T04:38:35.168-05:002011-03-16T04:38:35.168-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-27479740035004211022011-03-15T10:16:14.389-05:002011-03-15T10:16:14.389-05:00I don't see a problem with the idea that you s...I don't see a problem with the idea that you shouldn't use magick just to show off or prove its existence to skeptics. If Randi was honest about his challenge (he's not, and don't get me started on that...) the EMF evocation experiments I've posted here are probably reliable enough to pass a standard scientific trial. The thing is that I think if we were to prove the existence of magick once and for all we as practitioners could be in for a world of trouble. In countries where belief in magick is widespread people get accused of witchcraft and murdered by mobs every time somebody in the community gets hit by a big enough misfortune or natural disaster.<br /><br />If somebody is Pagan because that's the religion that inspires them but not a magician I don't necessarily think it stems from them wanting to be renfair douches or feel superior to Christians. People choose their religious beliefs for a lot of different reasons, many of them positive, and I'm not going to argue with them about it or presume to understand their motivation. However, if they start telling other people that they can be more "spiritual" by not doing magick (which is just about the opposite of reality) they'll get an earfull from me every time. And if they decide that sending a magical attack my way is a good idea I can pretty much guarantee that they'll wish they hadn't, especially if they aren't keeping up their personal practice.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-10194557867156470582011-03-15T01:26:12.140-05:002011-03-15T01:26:12.140-05:00@Mr Faust: The earlier interpretations I read seem...@Mr Faust: The earlier interpretations I read seemed to imply that magic was sacred and shouldn't be used to show off or prove its validity. I actually thought it made a lot of sense, whoever wrote it, considering people like Randi who have gone so far as to fabricate evidence in order to absolutely disprove certain phenomena. I think it's just been misinterpreted by some to mean that people shouldn't be using magic.<br /><br />Unless you're very familiar with the current Vegas community, I don't think you would know her. When I met her she was actively recruiting for a new coven and I sort of got the impression she hadn't been Wiccan very long and that she was lying about her degrees. At one point she also said that Georgian Wicca was something I made up, so that doesn't bode well to her claims of being third degree either.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-9264179521675478722011-03-14T22:26:58.591-05:002011-03-14T22:26:58.591-05:00@Rob: I have no doubt the idea exists. I've en...@Rob: I have no doubt the idea exists. I've encountered it, too. But I have serious doubts that it began with Gardner... I can't quite imagine him looking up from a copy of the Blue Equinox and saying, "you know what would really better the pagan feel of my religious structure? Not using magic except in extreme times of need! (Training? What's this about training? Why on earth would I train you, 'eh? Innit enough that I help you into a heathen and a witch?)"<br /><br />That said: from the Wiccan perspective as I understand it, "the craft" is about one's connection to the Gods and enhancing that. Spellcraft and <i>sorcery</i> are secondary to this, the most important focus of religious witchery. However, it is necessary to make use of certain esoteric techniques to reach the font and well-spring of the Gods (as well as, in an initiatory tradition, initiation). So saying you "never practice magic" as a Wiccan is a very silly statement. Saying you do not practice thaumaturgy, or practical magic is quite different. Me-thinks the person who made such comments to you doesn't know quite as much as they think they do. I hope I don't know the individual...Jack Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693993943756621762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-57240933962865798552011-03-14T21:40:17.326-05:002011-03-14T21:40:17.326-05:00@Mr Faust: I'm not really sure who first said ...@Mr Faust: I'm not really sure who first said it or in what context, which is why I qualified what I said with I took this as Gardner, instead of citing something he said specifically. I've always assumed it was Gardner because I've seen it in several Books of Shadows, both published and unpublished, which claim a Gardnerian lineage. I've also seen the idea reinterpreted into a lot of different Wiccan works, in fact most that I've ever read, so it had to have been some early and influential Wiccan that came up with the idea.<br /><br />It's that whole idea about magic being sacred and how it shouldn't be used to show off or as proof for someone else. It doesn't really fall in line with <i>Harm None...</i>, which is why I've always felt it was just a way to excuse Wiccans from having to deal with skeptics that demand that they prove the validity of magic. My main issue is with the reinterpretation of this concept to the idea that we should never or almost never use magic, which I've noticed has become fairly common in some parts of the Pagan community.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-21955779706469075902011-03-14T18:43:31.746-05:002011-03-14T18:43:31.746-05:00@Rob: You wrote: Within Paganism the belief seems ...@Rob: You wrote: <i>Within Paganism the belief seems to stem from the fact that there is a bit of Wiccan dogma that says magic should only be used when absolutely needed and never for unnecessary acts.</i><br /><br />That doesn't much fit with <i>and harm ye none, do what you will</i>, now does it?<br /><br />Unless I was provided with a specific instance, I'd find the inclusion of Gardner's name to the idea you listed above comes across as very dubious. Doreen Valiente makes <i>no comments</i> along those lines that I've seen and if Gardner had imparted such ideas to his disciples, she'd very likely have mentioned it. She covers most the disagreements they had in <i>The Rebirth of Witchcraft</i> (Chapter 3: Gerald Gardner) and that is not amongst them.<br /><br />I'm guessing the idea you were given was a later development from another source (such as say, <i>Ray Buckland</i>) that has been misappropriated into the legacy of Gardner. On the other hand, I've never read <i>The Meaning of Witchcraft</i> or all of <i>Witchcraft today</i>, so... I could be wrong.Jack Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693993943756621762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-74047396104525977902011-03-14T18:25:27.934-05:002011-03-14T18:25:27.934-05:00Part of the issue is that inside of Paganism, whic...Part of the issue is that inside of Paganism, which is where this argument usually comes up, and in certain parts of the LHP there are a large number of people who believe in not working magic and that working magic is dangerous, and even a large number that believe that it is wrong to work magic.<br /><br />Just last month I had a Wiccan high priestess claim that I had no idea about what spirituality was because I didn't take my spirituality seriously enough, and this was followed by the statement that, like a truly spiritual person, she never works any kind of magic. People like this can't go with what works, because they don't practice anything. Instead they have to rely on dogma, and since the dogma they appeal to is what grants them their authority, they have a vested interest in arguing its validity.<br /><br />Within Paganism the belief seems to stem from the fact that there is a bit of Wiccan dogma that says magic should only be used when absolutely needed and never for unnecessary acts. I always took this as Gardner giving Wiccans a dogmatic excuse for why they're not going to try to prove their magic to skeptics. However a lot of Pagans have taken this to mean that magic is sacred and should never be used except in absolute emergencies (which if you never practice, it's not going to work when you have an emergency). <br /><br />This goes hand in hand with people claiming they aren't Pagan to practice magic, but rather because that's the religion they feel comfortable with. It goes along with them wanting a religion that doesn't judge people, or that let's them dress up in ren-fair outfits, or that's about reclaiming their past and white pride, and it also breeds a sense of superiority to the older Christian religions that aren't evolved enough to dress up like pirates and embrace racial superiority.<br /><br />And of course these beliefs are being pushed by people within the community who don't practice magic and don't have any understanding of it yet want status and position within the community. Normally I don't care what other people believe, but these are people who actively attack me, and also attack anyone who sincerely wants to learn and understand magic. Anyone with real power and ability is a threat to their position and must be dealt with, and people who actually want to learn magic may eventually expose them as a fraud, and so they first attempt to dissuade them, and if that fails they label them a trouble maker and not really spiritual in order to preserve the rest of the group.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15339922041233122021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-8501390103437454582011-03-14T14:52:56.187-05:002011-03-14T14:52:56.187-05:00@Ananael: It may have gotten larger and more emoti...@Ananael: It may have gotten larger and more emotional than what I noticed; I honestly got a bit bored and tuned out of the discussion early.<br /><br />However: it's a recurrent debate, and one which will never <i>really</i> go away. One of the ways we tend to view religious or spiritual authenticity in the U.S. and Western Europe is based on historical precedence. This isn't necessarily the correct means to gauge what is or isn't authentic - there was a time, after all, when Christianity was quite new and hounded for suspected magical practices, cannibalism, and worship of a criminal - but the linear and progressive mode of thought tends to lead one to such a conclusion.<br /><br />I do not think it got above some hotly exchanged words and sour feelings, though. If there was to be a war over Hutton's work, it most likely would have occurred around 1998-2001 when the book was first published or being worked on. It didn't, and since then it's actually been hard to convince many folks to read the damn thing. At least two people have complained to me that the book is "too dryly written" to finish.<br /><br />Matured? Perhaps. Perhaps in places. Although I'm not really sure how a mature religion or subculture acts. I've yet to encounter anything beyond mature individuals, who also take part in such cultures, religions, and spiritual nooks and crannies.Jack Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693993943756621762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-1002725205112567032011-03-14T14:35:19.972-05:002011-03-14T14:35:19.972-05:00Obviously I meant "went to war" metaphor...Obviously I meant "went to war" metaphorically, since if there really were curses flying you can bet I would have covered that point. But I guess from the few posts I did read I assumed that the debate was bigger than a couple of folks making noises. If that's all it was, you're right - my "yawn" is fully explained.<br /><br />Part of the reason that I assumed this was a larger and more emotional debate is because I've seen a number of in-person examples that have spawned an unbelievable amount of drama over the "oldness" or "newness" of Pagan beliefs and practices. If that wasn't the case this time around, that's good. It at least suggests the community has matured a bit.Scott Stenwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12389664381513219613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7294505416127496842.post-83802211251601352172011-03-14T13:41:36.870-05:002011-03-14T13:41:36.870-05:00LOL. "Went to war" over Hutton? That was...LOL. "Went to war" over Hutton? That wasn't a war, man. It wasn't even a very enlightening debate. I saw a total of five or six blog posts from four or five individuals and one complete douchebag. There weren't even any effective curses displayed for the admiring public to rip off.<br /><br />Your magical wars suck, Ananael. Perhaps saying this should please be - as it means less people running around threaning to astrally nuke one another - but the reason you yawned was because it wasn't a war. It wasn't even an interesting diversion.Jack Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13693993943756621762noreply@blogger.com