Wednesday, April 29, 2009

Another Traditional Evocation Question

On the previous thread about Lisiewski's evocation methods, golden-dawn-hermetic wrote:

We all work classical grimoires, many are pre-Agrippa and Dee. It is one of the classical tests of spirits. You should ask them to move a physical object to prove they are present during an evocation.

I realize that the last article I posted was a bit snarky, but I am genuinely interested to see whether or not this effect exists and whether or not it can be managed and controlled reliably.

I have encountered a few physical effects during evocations, mostly things like candles flickering in unusual ways when the spirit manifests, breezes, and temperature changes in the room, but nothing that would rise to the level of small objects moving on their own. What sort of objects do you normally ask the spirit to move? I suppose you could hang a pendulum in the triangle or Holy Table and ask the spirit to make it swing or spin. Or are you talking about something more substantial, like commanding the spirit to slide around or levitate an object like a small stone or crystal?

I'm going to totally sound like James Randi here for a minute, and I apologize in advance, but if the spirits you summon can really move something as heavy as a small stone, why aren't you rich? I know, I've belittled skeptics for making that argument in the past, because it is a serious error to assume that if if you can create any sort of paranormal effect you should be able to accomplish every paranormal effect ever reported without limitations of any kind. But there is a genuine reason behind my asking. Theoretically, a spirit that is substantial enough to move a stone around could certainly line up a few ping-pong balls in a particular order, and in our modern world that's all you need to do to win a lottery jackpot. Or am I missing something here?

As readers of this blog know, I do lottery magick from time to time. It's a really good test of operant ability because all of the probabilities are spelled out. We know the exact odds for matching one number, two numbers, and so forth, and this allows me to gage the evolution of my magical abilities and also evaluate the effectiveness of different ritual methods. The best technique that I've come up with so far is the evocation of the four Enochian Watchtower Kings, though some recent work with the Heptarchia Mystica has suggested additional possibilities involving the Heptarchial Kings and Princes that I have yet to test.

My best result with the Watchtower Kings is 4 numbers out of 6 on the Powerball, and if there's a set of traditional grimoire spirits I could be using who can beat that I'm all for it. Even matching five numbers wins you real money. I do find some of the traditional grimoire methods cumbersome and time-consuming, but what's spending forty days on an operation if it means that afterwards you'll have enough money to spend the rest of your life working magick rather than working a normal job that consumes your waking hours? I know I'd be willing to make that trade.

UPDATE: For those of you who don't follow Strategic Sorcery, Jason Miller has his own article up over there on the subject of psychokinetic phenomena during evocations. He makes several good points, as usual.

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10 comments:

Gordon_Finn said...

>>What sort of objects do you normally ask the spirit to move?

One time, I did a candle offering. 1 for Bune and another for the whole Olympian pantheon at the same time. I decided to use Moloch's idea of mint, but the only liquid mint I had was a bottle of ACT-1 and Scope mouthwashes. So, I called them up and asked which they wanted and they said Scope. So, I poured it on the top of the candles and lit them. I set this up in a room with no windows open and the drapes were even closed. And the radiators weren't putting out any air either.

What they had been doing was communicating with the fires on the wicks, much like you'd do with pendulums and having a graph underneath to indicate which answer they were giving. The fires would make almost 90 degree bends in relation to the candles.

If you're gonna ask them to move something, make it easy on them and tell them to move the fire of a candle or the pendulum you're holding a particular direction. You are the one calling them. You can try a ouiji board, but it's solid matter rubbing against solid matter.

>>Theoretically, a spirit that is substantial enough to move a stone around could certainly line up a few ping-pong balls in a particular order, and in our modern world that's all you need to do to win a lottery jackpot. Or am I missing something here?

You're not, but it might be holding onto that particular material energy. You're condensing the spirit in one particular time and one particular space and it won't be able to move as quickly to the other place to move things around in the lotto ball tumbler. When you turn on a stun gun, the energy you see gets used up real quick before it flies out and becomes useless. It won't be contained.

However, that's assuming this is the only way to make such things happen, like winning the lotto. Because we've incarnated, we've forgotten so much more about how magick works that what we do know actually handicaps ways things can manifest, while we're incarnated.

It also brings up the idea that larger concepts and general effects are more effective and quicker to manifest than the small and precise. We all have the same level and amount of power to draw upon. The same as even a chair or a phone has. The difference is in our capacity to focus that power. This includes the spiris that don't incarnate, like those we find in grimiores.

Going from one precise thing to a totally different precise thing is harder than going from one general thing to one related general thing. Instead of just summoning a single spirit to physical manifestation and then, telling it to go make me win the lotto by making these specific numbers show up, it'd be easier to work on the egregore of 'good luck always showing up in your life for every single situation' and bring it into your life more. That makes it much easier to do stuff, like winning the lotto. It's more likely to show up.

So, no. You really aren't missing anything. This is just how it is.

>>I know I'd be willing to make that trade.

My own experience with material probability manipulation in my favor or thinking it's out of someone else's is with objects already in motion. As much as the components of solid matter are still in motion, it's still kept in check by self-reenforcement. It's too stable.

Robert-Joseph said...

I think the best example of phenomena during an evocation that I got and witnessed (I've heard claims that my eyes change colors and mist surronds me at times, but being me I never get to see and thus prove this shit, that if it's real is really cool, and happens to me) was actually one of the first instances I had happen during an evocation.

I was in my friend's apartment, and he had a love seat with the seat about two feet off the ground against one wall, which is where I put a box of ritual supplies. About three feet away and five feet up he had a shelf on the perpindicular wall with a cupid candle holder he had fashioned together from several different pieces on top and attached to it with several metal twists and screws, which was also near one of the altar points we set up for the evocation.

Anyways, with the room dark and candle lit, while what we evoked (can't remember the name right now, it was goetic though) was talking about that particular altar there was a huge crash on the cupid candle holder, like someone slammed their fist down on it.

After the ritual when we turned on the lights, the candle holder was hit hard enough to break several of the twisties holding it to the shelf, and on top of it was a candle taken out of my box (I counted the candles in my box to make sure that one was in fact missing).

I've had things happen that were far more dramatic and significant, but in this instance there's both the physical evidence left behind after the fact (the candle holder being broken off the shelf and the candle), so it isn't just something that was seen or heard in the moment of the ritual, and even though that can be explained by mundane phenomena, there's no way short of a major earthquake that would've shook, and probably significantly damaged, the building we were in for that candle to travel out of a box, three feet across and three feet up, and happen to land face up on a candle holder.

Typically when we do evocations or seances of non-humans we get some phenomena. A lot of times it's confined to water or fire moving as it shouldn't. Not everything wants to show off though, and sometimes there's not enough energy around to do it.

In any case, I find the whole idea of asking an entity to move something to prove it's there to be distasteful, rude, and tacky, and it also tends to show the entity just how weak the practitioner is, since an experienced magician should be able to tell if something is really there without needing a physical manifestation. Asking for a manifestation wreaks of amatuer.

Ananael Qaa said...

Gordon_Finn:

What they had been doing was communicating with the fires on the wicks, much like you'd do with pendulums and having a graph underneath to indicate which answer they were giving. The fires would make almost 90 degree bends in relation to the candles.

That's an interesting idea. The Enochian entities I work with routinely affect candle flames, but it never occurred to me to try using the effect as a means of communication. I'll have to give that a try at some point.

You can try a ouiji board, but it's solid matter rubbing against solid matter.

We did try a ouija board once on a bit of a lark, but it didn't seem to work all that well.

You're condensing the spirit in one particular time and one particular space and it won't be able to move as quickly to the other place to move things around in the lotto ball tumbler.

This is certainly a possibility. The solution, it would seem, would be to set up your triangle in such a way that it would surround the building where the drawing is happening. You could, for example, construct three metal stakes and enchant them so that they conjure an evocation triangle between their three points, and then go over to where the building is and find three spots where you can put them into the ground at the closest possible distance.

Robert-Joseph:

I've heard claims that my eyes change colors.

I actually have a friend whose eyes change color when she's in different moods without any magick involved. They don't undergo a radical shift, like from green to brown, but they sometimes get noticeably darker and lighter and the hue changes a little bit.

An experienced magician should be able to tell if something is really there without needing a physical manifestation.

That tends to be my opinion as well, though perhaps asking for some sort of physical proof could be a good practice when you're starting out and have less experience with the states of consciousness that tend to accompany manifestations.

Gordon_Finn said...

>>This is certainly a possibility. The solution, it would seem, would be to set up your triangle in such a way that it would surround the building where the drawing is happening. You could, for example, construct three metal stakes and enchant them so that they conjure an evocation triangle between their three points, and then go over to where the building is and find three spots where you can put them into the ground at the closest possible distance.

If you do this, you'll have to provide the energy/substance at the spot it's being done at for the spirit to manifest. But, if you really want to be efficient, get a stun gun and fix it up so that it continuously discharges energy (tape wrapped around the button and the handle, maybe) and tell the spirit to use the energy from the stun gun and use it to manifest. Hell, you could even spend a little bit of time by a power line tower and tell them to use the fields generated.

However, the physical distance might be too much for the amount generated, but they might be able to use some higher level know how to stay linked up to the power line tower. There is some idea of it in physics where 2 objects continue to interact once they leave the vicinity. So, it might be somehow related to that.

Gordon_Finn said...

While I don't feel that it is required each time to get a full manifestation to the physical for all evocations, I do think that the idea that working to physicality each time does have merits and shouldn't be completely disregarded out of hand. My main problem has been that it should be treated as a failure, if nothing physical happens.

If one wishes, they can work to physicality each time, regardless of how little they will be interacting with the spirit. Even if it is to just say high. The main idea behind bringing to physical existence and even visible to the untrained eyes is to develop within oneself the capacity to make things happen to such a strong degree over a short period of time that you become more adept at magick and can more regularly use it.

Like attracts like and being in the moment of now and not the future or the present are 2 magick laws that are the main focus behind the idea.

It's analgous to weight lifting. You have the proper diet and you're lifting weights, but one of the things you do is push the muscles when their tired and hurting. The point is to push them just a little bit more. Within that same 48 hour time period, you will still heal the tears you put in the muscles, whether you make that final 'failure push' or not.

That's what would be happening here. The final 'failure push' is you doing every evocation to physical manifestation and between each time you do it, you do further refinement and analysis of how and what you've done. And the failure push shouldn't ever involve muscle tension to just get 'more intense' about the belief.

Depending on just how well your skills are and how much you work on the failure push, you might try an evocation every week or so. Even with 52 evocations attempts to the physical, you're still gonna do quite well at skill development, even if the spirit doesn't fully manifest to the untrained eye for just a few seconds.

Ananael Qaa said...

But, if you really want to be efficient, get a stun gun and fix it up so that it continuously discharges energy (tape wrapped around the button and the handle, maybe) and tell the spirit to use the energy from the stun gun and use it to manifest.

Is this just an idea or have you actually tried it out? If so, how did it work?

It sounds like an interesting suggestion, but I haven't done enough experimentation to evaluate the relationship between electrical energy and whatever it is that spirits use to move things around. Ghosts apparently produce EM fields and also the sort of cold spots that would suggest they're converting the heat of the room into kinetic energy, but I'm not sure how electricity fits into all that.

My main problem has been that it should be treated as a failure, if nothing physical happens.

That's my main problem with Lisiewski's model as well, simply because it is so alien to my experiences as a magician. Many of my most successful spells have produced nothing in the way of temple manifestations, not even an odd candle flicker. But in terms of accomplishing my objectives they have worked remarkably well.

Gordon_Finn said...

>>Is this just an idea or have you actually tried it out? If so, how did it work?

I haven't tried it, but it works in theory. When you provide offerings, like incence and food and such, they do feed off the energy to one degree or another. They use it because they like the feeling of feeding off it or they use it to help manifest materially, if they aren't using the smoke/light/shadows, as a material base to 'possess' (forming the subtance into a body and making a temporary incarnation of themselves materially).

In 3D space, electromagnetism is the strongest force. It's when you go beyond that where gravity is stronger, but it's easier for us to generate electromagnetism than a gravitic/hover/repulsive force with our current technology and you can get stun guns relatively cheap. There are legal issues when carrying one on your person in some states, I believe, but it might be different if it's carried in a box with other stuff.

However, you'd have to get a few stun guns because their power will be depleted quickly, if they're on continuously. You could try also an air ionizer, but you'd need a portable power source. Maybe an electric lantern could work. No legal issues there in any state with carrying one.

Also, when spirits show up, you often see their faces in mirrors and other reflective surfaces. Reflective surfaces, especially deliberate mirrors, are condensers and concentrators of EM energy.

What I have done is use a mirror once long ago and when I did, I did see a shift in light in the mirror, but not much. However, I'm not sure if that was a shift in a vision in my head or if it was materially dense. After that, I thought it might be good to focus more on summoning without mirrors. But, it might be time I try mirrors in my works again to see how it does. I can do light hue changes in a room when I'm prepping it for a particular spirit, so the mirror could help in focusing it. I just don't want to become dependent upon it.

I do have a flashlight I could use as an offering. I can angle it on the mirror. I'll try it tonight and see how well it does.

>>but I'm not sure how electricity fits into all that.

Electricity is very efficient and it's very abundent. It's a common type used by spirits. Cold spots show up because the spirits are drawing on the ambient heat (both kinetic and em/infrared forms), so the area around them is colder. They're trying to maintain a material existence, while there, so they gotta get it from somewhere. Incarnated people don't do it like this because material forms are stable over the short term. There is a give off and absorption of EM energy with the surrounding environment, but the forces that keep our atoms together help keep the overall form from coming apart. Our bodies will eventually fall apart, but materialized spirits are in a much quicker state of 'decay', so they have a cold making effect around them.

And because they are doing this, their own emotions can flare and they get a large mass of electricity and other EM energies and stuff is moved, but it takes a lot of effort to make this happen.

And because they don't have the 'scattered' nature incarnated people have, their focus is better. Their more orderly bodies that are quickly disintegrating are much more capable of changing shape and they can stretch out part of it and grab a thing and throw it, even if we don't see it.

Because they are constantly trying to keep themselves from disintegrating, you can see why many spirits are quick to anger and many are angry when things start moving around. It's like models that starve themselves. Many are angry, but that's just because they're starving and tired.

Gordon_Finn said...

I just tried it here at work in my office, using the pane of glass by my desk. The overhead lights were my source of energy, as the offering to help the spirit appear materially. In this case, I chose Archangel Michael and I focused on my reflection. Almost immediately, the reflection of myself started shifting.

To make sure it wasn't just a vision in my head, I blinked repeatedly. When I do, visual visions in my head stop. Other info keeps being 'channeled', but the visual aspects get interrupted. If I blink slowly or just once, it doesn't stop the visual part or stall it. Blinking 10 times as fast as I can, stoping half a second and blinking 10 times again really fast and repeating this stops/stalls visuals stuff channeled. The visuals I got didn't stop.

For a couple minutes, the parts of my reflection kept squeezing and stretching. I could tell what his face was trying to look like, but it wouldn't stay. Some parts would move back to where they were originally, others would move to other places.

Going with the assumption that there wasn't enough energy/occult stuff to stabilize the form in the glass, I focused more of myself to ordering the shifting features. At first, I was just using the occult stuff of my conscious will alone without any additional parts of me, as I relaxed and got into a more consciously meditating state.

It didn't work, as well as I had hoped, but it's more than what I did long ago the last time I used a mirror. A few more tries should get better results.

But, his general appearance was this: a square chin, a long and narrow face, a medium sized nose and mouth, a high forehead and maybe medium length hair. Because I'm white with dark hair, I can't be sure if that's what he would look like or if that was just what he had to work with and wasn't trying to change the color of anything. Things were just shifting around. When I try tonight, I'll see if we can get any color change. The most was just the appearance of shadows from a different underlying bone structure.

Suecae Sounds said...

I thought this link would be of interest to you, it is an interview with someone who have been initiated into the Golden Dawn but later shifted focus to traditional Arabic Sorcery. He talks a lot about the Djinn and also brushes upon the LRBP:

http://www.molochsorcery.com/Interview_1.html

I first found this via the G.D blog Ex Orient Lux.

Ananael Qaa said...

Thanks for the link. I'm actually somewhat familiar with Moloch but haven't looked at his website in awhile and hadn't seen that interview. It's pretty remarkable hearing from a practitioner who forged ahead with his magical studies despite growing up in Saudi Arabia, where using magick can warrant a death sentence. As far as spiritual practices go, we really do have it good here in the United States.

As far as his comments on the LBRP go, it's no surprise to me that in his experience it won't banish the Djinn. According to the operant field model the LBRP wouldn't work on macrocosmic spirits, seeing as it's a microcosmic ritual and all. You would need either the LBRP + LBRH (banishing field) or a specific ritual designed with the Djinn in mind like Nineveh mentions using in the interview.