Enochian Magick Forum

A number of readers have asked me to create some sort of forum where they could ask questions and discuss various aspects of Heptarchial magick as outlined in Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy. So here it is.

If you're reading the book and have questions about the rituals or other content feel free to add a comment. I'll check the page on a regular basis and hopefully be able to answer any questions to your satisfaction.

On June 12th of 2013 I appeared on the online radio program Deeper Down the Rabbit Hole and discussed Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy. You can download and listen to the podcast of my appearance here.


My second book, Mastering the Great Table, is now available. So I've renamed this forum page from "Heptarchia Mystica" to "Enochian Magick." Consider it a space in which you can ask questions about the Great Table as well as the Heptarchia. Mastering the Great Table is now also available in Kindle and ebook editions.

On October 12th of 2014 I appeared on Pagans Tonight Radio with Pam Kelly, discussing Enochian and grimoire magick. You can listen to the archive of my appearance here. This page is the forum I mentioned on the show, where you can ask questions about my books and Enochian magick in general.

163 comments:

Ananael Qaa said...

I'll start things off with a link back to this post on visible manifestations. The gist of it is that while certain grimoire spirits do seem to manifest in a manner that at least appears to be visible (whether or not they could be photographed or seen by onlookers) this is generally not the case with the Heptarchial Kings and Princes.

In order to properly "see" the Kings and Princes when they manifest you need to have a scrying device like a crystal or mirror, and if Dee's experience is any indication, you need to be a decent scryer as well. Dee worked with Kelley because while he apparently saw something when he looked into the shewstone he had a hard time communicating with the Enochian entities in that way.

I'll add that as I comment in the book, the degree to which the Enochian entities visibly appear has little to do with how effective your practical operations will be. I've done some pretty extreme probability shifts with Enochian rituals where all I perceived was a general shift in the atmosphere of the room when the angels arrived.

SPL said...

Hi,

I've read your book twice and I would like to ask you about the following:
1) Can the Heptarchy be used for mundane goals(thaumaturgy) as other magical systems, I mean for the usual goals such as: job/business, wealth, love, health, etc.
2) Also, if it is necessary to have all the proper tools to start working with the Heptarchy?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Scott Stenwick said...

Hi SPL,

#1) The Kings and Princes can absolutely be conjured to accomplish mundane goals. Sometimes it can take some work to figure out which King or Prince to call upon based on their enumerated powers, but with a little thought you can usually work it out. If you aren't sure, you can also go the scrying route. If I have questions about the Heptarchy, I generally find Carmara (the dispensor of the Heptarchial doctrine) to be a good resource for asking which King or Prince would be best for a particular operation.

#2) No, you don't need everything to start working with the system. I do recommend that you get ahold of or make a ring with the proper characters because the angels specifically indicated to Dee that it was required, but aside from that I worked with a partial temple setup for years. As I write in the book, I find that the more tools you have the better it works, but that you can get good results even if your set of tools and implements is not complete.

Thanks for reading! If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

SPL said...

Thanks for your reply and clarification Ananael, now I have a clear picture so it just remains to start practicing, by the way thanks for your offer of further help.

Scott Stenwick said...

Great! I'm glad that was helpful. As you start practicing the system, feel free to let me know how it goes. More data is always a good thing.

Happy conjuring!

Heru said...

Hi,
I've read your book and also have a few questions. The book has been very helpful and it's great to have found one of the few resources on the Heptarchy.

1. Regarding mundane goals, I have been trying to figure out which Kings and Princes to call upon. I am new to scrying and haven't gotten information this way. Would the planetary associations of the Kings and Princes be useful?

2. I had the idea of preparing an enochian protective talisman after reading your blog about Jason Miller's book, but can't recall seeing one. Does the PELE ring serve that role during ritual? I thought about consecrating a protective talisman within the SDA during ritual, but haven't come up with a design or which King or Prince to call upon.

Thanks so much for your answers and the website.

Scott Stenwick said...

Hi Heru,

#1) If you read through the conjurations for the Kings and Princes, their powers and properties are enumerated there. Also, you can associate them according to the traditional planetary attributions. So Jupiter and the Sun are related to status and wealth, Saturn and Mars to cursing, Venus to love, Mercury to healing and knowledge, and so forth.

#2) This is accomplished by means of both the PELE ring and the lamen, which is worn like a breastplate over the heart center. The lamen is described in the book along with the other Enochian temple implements. A drawing of it can also be found here. Mine made from a plate of brass with the letters engraved, but Dee was told that he could make his out of parchment so something as simple as a tagboard square with the Angelic letters written on it will work fine.

Dee was given no specific rituals for empowering the ring, lamen, or any of the other temple implements. I would think, though, that if you wanted to do something like that Carmara would be the best choice. He's the "dispenser of the Heptarchial doctrine" and is also the "top level" king who rules over the others.

Hope that helps, and feel free to let me know how it goes.

Heru said...

Hi Ananael. Thanks for your response. I will let you know how it goes. One thing I found very helpful was performing an 18/19 day working. I am now finding the AOEVEAE Ritual and NAZ OLPIRT exercise to also be very helpful and plan to add in the MADRIAX Ritual in short order. Thanks again for the assistance.

greglv said...

Hi,
First...great book!! Doing lots of research and you have created an easy to read, very valuable resource. You should charge more, (but not to me).

Second...I read in Jason Miller's blog practricing Enochian produces lots of paranormal events and life shake-ups. This concerns me as I'm intersted in un-shaking-up my life. Can you tell me what he means or what I may expect?

Thanks,
Greg

Scott Stenwick said...

Hi Greg,

I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the book. It was fun to write, and I think it's a good thing that it's affordable. I want the information in it to be distributed as widely as possible.

The idea that Enochian "shakes up your life" has been around for awhile. I'm not sure how Jason approached his Enochian work (or if he's reporting on the experience of others) but I have not found the Enochian system to be much more life-disrupting than magical practice is in general.

I do think that if there's a form of Enochian that produces those sorts of effects, the traditional grimoire approach using the appropriate tools and so forth that I advocate in the book is not it. Every time I hear a story about somebody having problems with Enochian, I ask questions. Did they wear the ring? Did they wear the lamen? Did they use the Holy Table and Sigillum?

In every case I've come across the answer is always no. I find it kind of surprising that people who study the original system would decide that going ahead and dispensing with the tools and so forth is a good idea. In some cases, these are also people who do Goetia and wouldn't dream of performing one of those rituals without a triangle and so forth. To some extent I have to blame Aleister Crowley for this attitude, even though I'm a Thelemite and longtime student of his works.

Liber Chanockh does include an overview of the temple furniture and tools, but if you read The Vision and the Voice you'll see that when scrying the Aethyrs Crowley used no tools aside from a Golden Dawn rose cross with a topaz in the center (which is not part of the system at all) and only employed a circle to protect Victor Neuberg when scrying the the Tenth Aethyr. So anybody who reads that account and figures Crowley knew what he was doing might figure he or she could do the same.

The problem with this, as you can see in the Crowley's account, is that according to the angels with whom he interacted he had already crossed the Abyss and was recognized as a Master of the Temple. I have no doubt that a Master of the Temple would have no problem invoking the Enochian angels without tools or implements. But to a beginning magician, I would suggest working with the system as it is described - or at least as close as you can manage with the implements you have on hand.

Over the course of my Enochian work my life has improved substantially without any major crises that have derailed my goals and so forth. I attribute that to my traditional style of working more than anything else. I would expect that if you follow the procedures outlined in my book, your experiences should be similar.

Scott Stenwick said...

I've just posted the text of a presentation that I gave over the weekend at Leaping Laughter Lodge on the Heptarchia Mystica. Here's a link to the article.

Scott Stenwick said...

Here's a new post on the latest attempt to "restore" the Heptarchia Mystica. It's a neat idea, but we'll have to see if it stands up to empirical testing.

Scott Stenwick said...

Here are some more thoughts on rearranging the powers of the Heptarchial Princes.

Scott Stenwick said...

Scans of the John Dee material from the British Museum used to be hosted by The Magickal Review. Their site is now down, but the archived scans have a new home. You can check them out here. There's nothing like viewing the original primary sources.

Dean Williams said...

I finished reading the Mastering the Great Table book and it was very insightful and will be quite useful. I have conducted the AOEVEAE and MADIAX rituals (along with the NAZ OLPIRT)and prefer the directional arrangement from the 1587 Tabula Recensa. I had previously used the rituals over a period of time using the Golden Dawn arrangement, after I had gotten your first book. Now I've starting doing it again with the original arrangement and it just flows smoother for me personally.

Scott Stenwick said...

Thanks, and I'm glad to hear that you're finding my book useful.

I work with the system the way that I do because I noticed the same thing. I started out with GD attributions, then switched to the original arrangement and found that it seemed to work better and smoother.

Scott Stenwick said...

Here's a link to my latest Enochian article, on a possible application for John Dee's Liber Loagaeth in conjunction with the Heptarchia Mystica.

darpangondlir said...

I have read your book MMH. Got some great ideas out of it!
The idea to use call one for evocation and two for invocation resonates with my first ideas and experiments with these two calls. Call one to identify with the Divine Author of the Enochian System, or Creative God Fore itself (Yang). Call two as preparing the self to receive (divine marriage/ Yin).

Now I have to figure out the use of the rest of the calls. I can't buy your new book MGT yet (is a ebook still on its way?). And for now I use the G.D. arrangement to get started. Hope that doesn't get me into too much trouble in the long run.

But my first communications with the E.E.'s seem to tell me they are flexible and are willing to work with a magician using his or her symbol set and co-create something new, and actually enjoy doing so.

Scott Stenwick said...

Pendraig is still working on the ebook version of MGT. I was originally told that it would be out over a month ago, and haven't received any updates since then. I'll be sure to announce when it's finally available.

I've also found that the Enochian entities will happily pick up whatever symbol set you want to use when working with them. I started out with the GD system - it didn't get me into too much trouble and produced some good results. I just found that my rituals worked better with the original Dee attributions, so I've stuck with them.

Scott Stenwick said...

I just realized that I totally missed updating this forum page when the Mastering the Great Table ebook was released. It came out at the beginning of May, and can be purchased from Amazon and SmashWords.

Scott Stenwick said...

Here's a link to my presentation, "Ministering Angels: The Solomonic Roots of Enochian Magick" that I delivered on August 23 at the MNCON Midwest Ordo Templi Orientis Convention.

Unknown said...

Hi Ananael,

You have such a large volume and extensive information on a variety of magical arts, sadly you don't provide any magical services for the needy.

Scott Stenwick said...

No, I do not.

I have a full time professional job as a technical solutions architect and a second career as an author and blogger. What productive time I have left over after that goes towards my own personal magical practices, operations, and research. So I really don't have the time to add a third career as a professional spell-caster on top of all that.

The good news is that stuff I publish on here and in my books works, and one of the things that many professionals won't tell you is that if you do a spell yourself it's likely to work better because you're personally involved in the situation you're trying to influence.

I. A. E. said...

Hello,
First of all, thank you for writing up the presentations you gave on the Heptarchy, the Great Table, and recently the Aires. These have been extremely helpful to me in beginning my own study of Enochiana.

I have a few quick questions about the temple setup used for operations related to the Heptarchy. First, how necessary is it that the Holy Table be three feet in area and supported by three-foot (or, as you pointed out, about an inch shorter to make room for the small Sigilla) legs? I get the feeling that the proportions of a cube are more important than the actual measure of three feet; would a two-foot (or, possibly, even less) square Table be a workable setup?

Second, is the use of wax for the Sigilla mainly a matter of being easy to engrave? I saw pictures of one person making them out of carved marble, which not only looks fantastic, but would probably stand up much better to standard wear and tear (and heat, given that I live in the South). Would any problems arise from using marble Sigilla instead of wax ones, assuming that the design was still completely accurate?

Finally, it seems to me based on reading about the procedure for Encohian rituals generally that the ritual work doesn't involve moving around the room in the same way that many Golden Dawn/Thelemic rituals do. If this is the case, it would be a boon to me given the small floorspace I have to work with; aside from stepping onto the seals of the King and Prince, is a great deal of circumambulation necessary?

Thanks for any information you're able to give!

Scott Stenwick said...

You are very welcome!

One of the things that I like to stress about the temple setup and so forth is that while you generally get better results if your setup matches the specification closely, you can get really good results even if you don't have all the pieces and/or all the dimensions don't match.

As far as the Holy Table goes, you certainly could make it smaller. Back when I was starting out I had a Holy Table that was only about a foot square and I still was able to get it to work. I didn't have the legs either, just a piece of wood with the diagram burned into it.

The Sigillum can also be done in different materials. I do have a wax one, but I've also known magicians who just printed it out on paper and made that work (though you need to remember that the cross with AGLA still goes on the back). So marble would be fine, and I agree that it would look pretty cool.

As far as moving around the room goes, you don't need to do it at all if you're working with the Heptarchials. Just stand to the west of your Holy Table facing east. For some Great Table operations, though, I do work my way around the room because there are Angelic Keys attributed to the different quarters and I like to be facing the direction when I read them.

However, I also understand limited space. I don't see any reason why, even for those operations, you couldn't just rotate in place to the appropriate direction. That would require very little floor space and you could probably fit your whole setup into something like a large closet.

Rene Quiel said...

Hi Ananael,

I've been reading your Mastering the Great Table, quite good your approach, now I would like to ask you a couple of questions to have a more clear picture.
I'm using the Tabula Recensa, but even though you remark that the placement of the tablets is directional and not elemental, you mentioned Kelley's vision of the Roundhouse where the elements are assigned to each cardinal point, east-fire, south-air, west-water and north-earth, which in turns is the alchemical density order. It may seems obvious, but just wanted to ask you if you consider that the "right" elemental attribution of the regarding the cardinal points, and by extension, to the tables. I just want to make sure about this point.
On the other hand I'm confussed in regard of your selection of the Lesser and Kerubic Angels, for instance let's take the angels of transformation as an example, the angel Ave said that those are to be found at the Northern subquarter of each table, which I read(in t he Recensa) and using the Eastern table as an example: ABMO, NACO, OCANM & SHAL.
But in the book you mention for the Eastern quadrant the following Angels of Tranformation: ACCA, NPNT, OTOI & PMOX. But these angels are in the Western subquadrant of the Eastern Table, I checked the corresponding talisman and this has the same names. Can you ellaborate a little bit why this angels or that sub-quarter?
Thanks, and by the way I'm doing well with the Heptarchy!
SPL

Scott Stenwick said...

As far as your first question goes, I consider the directions more primary than the elements, but when attributing elements to the four quadrants I believe my arrangement is the best that can be derived from the diaries. There are other ways to look at it, though. There is one inconsistency between Kelley's watchtower vision and the round house vision. Between those, the colors red and white swap with respect to the eastern and southern quadrants, so it is possible that somebody could read over the diaries and derive something different. That being said, the density order interpretation is what I use and I have gotten good results with it, so it's what I put in the book.

Between the original Great Table and Tabula Recensa a number of things were switched around as far as the attribution of the angels of the quarters goes. I expect that's what's going on, but I would have to refer back through my research notes to give you an exact answer. I'll take a look and get back to you as far as the justification for it goes. One thing that comes to mind off the top of my head is that you can't automatically assume that the position of the subquadrants directly reflects the position of the quadrants. The Golden Dawn does that, but it isn't explicitly stated in the diaries.

I'm glad to hear that you're doing well with the Heptarchy. Keep up the good work!

Rene Quiel said...

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. Actually I wasn't aware of that inconsistency in Kelly's visions, and yes different attribution can be derived, but for me the one with more internal logic consistency is the one based on density.

Basically I didn't assumed that the position of the subquadrants reflects that of the quadrants, instead I checked what Ave said regarding the Kerubic and Lesser Angels and applied that distibution to the Recensa, in the case of Angels of Transformation he said those of the Northern subquadrant, but I don't rule out a misinterpretation from my part, that's why your comments on this regard are highly valued.

By the way, hope you complete the third book of the serie soon, can't wait for the book about the Aethyrs, good luck!

Scott Stenwick said...

Keep in mind that when you are talking about deriving functional magical ideas from the Dee diaries, your interpretation might just be different from mine rather than a "misinterpretation." One of the issues with working through this material is that when deciding what to include, what not to include, and how to read certain sections you have to make a series of decisions as you assemble your attributions. If even one of those decisions is different, the final system that you end up with will be different as well.

Some of the authors out there write as if their interpretation is the only possible one that makes sense, but frankly that just isn't true for any of them, including me. There are a number of cases where the diaries can be read more than one way and the only way to proceed is to figure out the model that makes the most sense and go from there, which means that by necessity you're putting the characteristics of your model ahead of the material itself.

Rene Quiel said...

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, you are right, at the end of the day it is as you said, and I've reached the point where a decision was made regarding my own Enochian Paradigm in respect of the Great Table, based on my current understanding, which implies to leave some things out and include others for the sake of consistency as I perceive it.

Good Luck!

Dacia Pacea said...

So i've just completed crafting the Holy Table, the Sigillum Dei Aemeth together with 4 smaller replicas, the Lamen and the Ensigns of Creation. They were made on a smaller scale than the dimensions Dee was instructed to craft them. I will post pictures of them on the FB group. I'm still thinking of a right approach towards crafting the ring and the robe.

My question is, do these tools need to be consecrated in some way or another, or could they be used as they are?

Also, if you happen to have some templates of the seals for the Heptarchy kings and princes, could you post them so that i could print them out and glue them to some cardboard? I'm not skilled in this kind of arts and crafts and i don't want to make a mess of them :)

Thanks!

Scott Stenwick said...

Dee was given no instructions for consecrating the tools, so as I read it they do not require anything of the sort. They seem to charge up with regular use pretty quickly. The one exception might be the ring - I never did anything special to consecrate mine, but one of the folks over on the Enochian FB group was of the opinion that it should be consecrated to the archangel Michael, as Michael delivered the design of the ring to Dee.

Is there a reason you can't photocopy the seals out of my book? That's why I made the images as large as I did, so people could do just that.

Dacia Pacea said...

Well... I don't have your book :(
I was thinking of sending you the $25 or so via WU and that you would send me a pdf of it, because it would cost extra for the shipping, adding to the WU tax. I can't find it as an online pdf either.

I've only learned from your blog entries and from other online sourses that I've found here and there (just as I did for the planetary system), although those sources are not so direct as yours.

Scott Stenwick said...

You can order Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy online as a PDF from Smashwords:

https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/139013

It's $4.99, which is a lot cheaper than $25. And the talismans are all in there.

Dacia Pacea said...

Wow! That's great! As soon as I find someone with a credit card I'll order it. Thank you!

That should put an end to my inquiries as in why are there two versions of the Holy Table and Lamen, both with enochian letters :)

Dacia Pacea said...

I'm about to get hold of the robe and to craft my ring. It's gonna be made out of cardboard, but i hope it works. Still didn't manage to get hold of that pdf of you book, but i'm working on it. Anyway, I still have a few questions, if you don't mind:

1. This might sound stupid, but should the robe be washed together with the regular attire?

2. If i am to cast spells for someone else, how am i to use a link? Should it be placed on top of the Sigillum, giving the fact that the angels manifest on it? This brings forth another question regarding the link and i'm going to use Dee's casting for stopping the spanish armada to invade England. From what i've read on your blog, it points out that he had used Befafes (hope i got the name right) to use his powers upon water to destroy the enemy fleet, which as we know today, happened quite well. I mean they were not totally obliterated, but they had no fight left in them. I'm wondering what kind of link would Dee have used? A spanish coat of arms? A glass of sea water from the Channel/North Sea? Or could he had cast the spell with no link what so ever, considering that the EEs are smarter than the planetary entities? They get the point of the intent that is.

3. Since i don't have a scrying tool, can i use a small amethyst crystal in order to try to visually communicate with the angels? I could make a small dark mirror with some effort, but it would take more time before i'll start working with this system.

Thanks and blessings!

Scott Stenwick said...

1. It really does not matter one way or the other.

2. The link to the target of the spell, whoever or whatever that is, goes in the center of the Sigillum. I have no idea what Dee would have used as a link in 1588. Often with weather magick you don't need one, since weather is all around us. If it were me, though, I think something like the Spanish coat of arms would probably have been most appropriate.

3. Sure. I often don't use a crystal at all. A lot of the time I just clear my mind and "scry" that way, since I seem to have some trouble doing it the traditional way. When Crowley worked through the aires, he used a topaz crystal pressed to his forehead. So there is some precedent for using crystals that differ from the traditional scrying glass.

Dacia Pacea said...

That's good to know. In addition, I still need some dirrections considering the use of the right planetary hours (jeeez I never seem to pack all my questions in the same post).

You say that Carmara and Hagonel can be conjured at any time, because they rule the Heptarcy, andd that seems logical. But for the others there is a specific day and hour in which they should be conjured (with the princes' times differing from those of the kings). The problem for me would be that I only have a specific time frame of about 2-3hours from 11pm-12am in which to perform my regular practices and the additional magickal works. So it would be quite difficult for me to find the right time to address certain entities. Could I compensate this by performing the (LBRP-LIRH) GIRP of the planet corresponding to the EE I'd want to call upon? Or are their specific time frames mandatory?

Thank you!

Scott Stenwick said...

You can generally conjure the King and Prince any time on the proper day, the planetary hour just seems to help the process along. So like most things in the Enochian system, it is helpful but not required. The day does appear to be a hard requirement according to Dee, but not the hour.

In my experience, the Greater Hexagram for the planet also helps, and can to some degree take the place of the planetary hour. Of course, if you can do the form at the proper hour, that's the most effective of all and that seems to be a general rule when using modern forms with the grimoires.

Also note that when you conjure the King, you also get the Prince and Ministers, and when you conjure the Prince, you don't get the King but you do get the Ministers. So you can conjure the King at the proper time but deliver the charge to the Prince - that does usually work.

Dacia Pacea said...

:D

Only have to get hold of the material to make the robe and i'll get it going. I'll post feedback along the way, if you're interested.

Blessings!

Dacia Pacea said...

Ok. I think I'm starting to handle the conversation with the angels. I still can't see them while scrying, but i was told my "sensitive sight isn't that developed yet".

Nevertheless I heard voices that where not my mind's and I could conversate with them using my mind's voice. That happened after the specific conjurations and the vibrating of the specific name a number of times. And the answers I got totally made sense. Those were not some runaway thoughts of mine that didn't make sense. The voices of the kings sounded more harsh and resembled the tone of Italian mobsters in the movies :)) I know, right? :)) the princes on the other hand have a more gentle tone.

Earlier I conjured king Blumaza. I asked him his powers, because I want to mention them in future conjurations of him. This is because I didn't find them either in you blog, or in the transcripts of Dee's diaries, besides him being an aspect of Carmara and thus ruling the Heptarchy.

He said that he has power over dreams and wisdom. Then I asked for the powers of his Prince, Bralges. I was told he has the power of making good dreams and thoughts come true, giving restful sleep without nightmares and, giving comfort and relief.

Unknown said...

Hi Scott,

1. Is it possible to conjure up a King of Prince seeking fulfillment such as: Success in Business, Higher Promotion for Wife in the workplace, and good scores/results for my Son under-graduation studies, good health, etc.

2. Do we need any prior magical knowledge/experience to perform the art?

3. Are their any side effects (negative effect) such as sleepless nights, bad luck, ill health, after performing such conjuration?

Scott Stenwick said...

1. Sure. If you do not see a power listed, look at the traditional planetary attributions. Sun for business success, Jupiter for job promotions, Mercury for health, and so on. If you want to go with a Prince, use the planetary attribution of the day rather than the hour, even though a different planetary aspect is noted.

2. You need to know how to work magick. But I think that should be kind of obvious. The better you are at ritual work in general, the better a Heptarchial operation will work.

3. Not if you do it right. Follow the procedure carefully and you shouldn't have to worry about anything like that.

Dacia Pacea said...

Have any of you experienced certain changes after starting working with the enochian system?

I'm not referring to bad thing starting to happen. More like changes resembling the ones that started at the beginning of planetary magick practice. Like after just a few sessions of LBRP and MP. It's like certain areas of my mind are being influenced by the new energies in a way that I feel would allow me to go to a deeper level of the system.

I've only started practicing it for some 10 days and i have the sensation that I've just entered the front door of a huge pallace and only took two or three steps inside the loby. My personality is being prepared to start experiencing the vast territory I've just entered.

As physical sensations, I'm experiencing a tipsy/stoned state after finishing the ritual and a slight fatigue, although it doesn't affect me the next day.

Dacia Pacea said...

I'm happy to report my first practical success with the Enochian system. My goal for the first rituals i've worked was to establish contact with the angels, both auditory and visual. After the communication attempts, i gave the charge to either the King, or the Prince, depending on the intent.

I'm still not %100 convinced i have established contact with them, even though i totally felt i've engaged in dialogue with a different entity than my own (my background thoughts).

Now for the practical success part. I gave the charge to King Baligon to change the atmosphere in such a way that a cool breeze would be felt in my country. That was due to the fact that temperatures here were rising above 95F every day and the weather forecast predictions showed an increasing heat wave over my country. After a few days of intense heat, a slight breeze started to blow and over the course of 1-2 days, temperatures started to drop to a more comfortable 85F.

I guess this could be registered as a successful ritual outcome, right?

Scott Stenwick said...

Sure, the results conformed to the charge you gave. That would be a success in my book. You should get more used to how the contact feels once you've worked with them a little more, and keep in mind that it's not on/off like a switch. The intensity and accuracy of your contact with them will increase over time as you perform subsequent operations.

Dacia Pacea said...

It's good to know that. Makes me even more enthusiastic to keep working with them.

I don't know if this was ever discussed regarding the enochian angels, but would it be ok to give them offerings? I do light incense sticks for the specific planetary energy every day.

Scott Stenwick said...

Yes, offerings are fine. If you are using something that you need to put in some sort of a container, use a small one that will fit on top of the Sigillum along with your crystal or whatever you are using as the spell focus. That way the offering is directly exposed to the presence of the angel.

Dacia Pacea said...

Of course. Thank you!

Dacia Pacea said...

Have you tried influencing the outcome of sports events with the enochian system?

I'm willing to help my favourite soccer team qualify in the biggest european clubs tournament and I was thinking about using the Heptarchy angels, instead of the planetary energies.

I haven't crafted the things necessary to work with the Great Table or the Aires, so I'm left with the Heptarchy.

Could you recommend a king or prince for this kind of work?

Scott Stenwick said...

I have done that a couple of times as magical experiments. I am not really a big sports fan, so I just wanted to see if I could do it, and I was successful when I tried. But I did not use any particular Enochian entity to do it.

I think if you want to use the Heptarchia, the best way to go about it is probably to conjure Carmara and ask, since it is not clear to me where sporting events would fall. Earthly actions, maybe? But Carmara could tell you for sure.

What do you need to work with the Great Table that you don't already have for the Heptarchia? In theory you can add stuff like the banners to your temple, but you don't need them. Golden Dawn folks work with Great Table using nothing in the way of tools or equipment all the time, and some of them get good results.

Dacia Pacea said...

I think Mercury would be in order for these kind of things, or even Mars to give the team more fighting spirit. I'll probably go with Mercury if I won't get any answers from Carmara. Thanks for reminding me that I can ask him.

I want to be able to work with the Great Table and the Aires, but I'd prefer to do this properly. That means adding as much equipment as I can, to compensate my lack of conditions. It'll have to wait, but I'll start working with them eventually.



Scott Stenwick said...

If I remember right, Mercury (Wednesday) is associated with earthly actions, so that sounds good to me. You have the Mercurial aspect, and soccer is played on a field.

In the Heptarchia, Mars (Tuesday) is more concerned with water and the seas. So, for example, if the sport was swimming it would seem that Mars would be more appropriate.

Dacia Pacea said...

Oh I was referring to Mercury and Mars as in a planetary ritual. My bad. I wrote the text in a hurry. But it turned out good, because you pointed me towards the enochian angels of Wednesday. That seems appropriate :D

I will call upon Carmara first and hope I'll be able to have a conversation with him.

I'll let you know what the ritual results were and what angel/spirit I used.

Thank you!

Unknown said...

Hi Scott,

With your permission, I would like to connect with DACIA PACEA. I would like to reach out to her for some commercial services. Thank you for being so kind.

Leonard

Scott Stenwick said...

While I am fine with you leaving a message to that effect here, keep in mind that I generally do not have any contact information for the folks who post comments on the blog. So aside from leaving your message up, there's not much more I can do.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Unknown you can leave a message for me here if Scott approves, but I should tell you that I'm not interested in services regarding magick spells. I'm capable of performing them on my own.

Unknown said...

Hi Dacia,

Name is Leonard. I live in India.

I have been in love with the "art of magic" for a long time now, and have been following Scott and other similar forums. I am a financial consultant, due to the nature of my business, I hardly have time to to perform conjuration myself, although I have Scotts material for the ceremony.

I am not selling you anything, I don't sell anything... instead I am seeking your magical guidance, and I see you have been getting good results.

I can be reached privately on this email address: thisisleonard72@gmail.com

Dacia Pacea said...

Dude I sent you an email 5days ago...

Scott Stenwick said...

Yes, that is a great resource for the original material. I have a direct link to it at the top of the page titled Enochian Source Archives and I highly recommend that anyone interesting in working with Dee's system check it out. It has scans of the original manuscripts from the British Museum, so you can read them for yourself and make up your own mind about how you want to work with it.

Scott Stenwick said...

Well, even though I am an OTO initiate, I would not describe the way I work Enochian as following an "OTO formula." The closest thing to that would probably be Crowley's Liber Chanokh, which is basically a revision of the GD attributions. It's very different from the original attributions, which are what I use in my own work and publish in my books.

Phergoph did the magical community a really great service with respect to the original scans. He downloaded and posted them all on his site when the folks at The Magical Review, who had hosted them for years, decided to take them down. Thanks to him we all still have access, and can easily see Dee's work as he originally wrote it.

At any rate, though, thanks for your insights. I suppose the thing about prophecy is that we all just have to wait and see how everything works out.

Dacia Pacea said...

Wow! What was that all about? :))

Anyway, here's an update on my previous ritual. The one meant to help my team. It was a total bust - they lost 5-0 in the first leg :)) The chances were very slim though. A team with a 25million combined tranfer value against an English side owned by sheiks, with a 600million combined transfer value.

I think it was my fault though. When I called upon Carmara and asked him for the name of the right angel, I think i wasn't concentrating enough, or I misunderstood the name. Or perhaps I forgot it in the seconds leading from hearing it until I wrote it down, and replaced it with another :) I wrote the name Bobogel and even though I was puzzeled at the end of that ritual, I went ahead last Sunday with the ritual using Bobogel for help - comfidence high and no doubts. I placed the official logo that combined the emblems of both club and the logo of the competition on the Sigillum. I did the ritual and waited.

The game itself was a total wreck for my side. It was like a high school basketball team taking on the NBA all-stars. But a few peculiarities caught my eye during the game. They most valuable player missed 2 penalty shots. The first at 0-0 and the second on 1-0. The first shot was deflected by the goalkeeper and then another player fought the ball and his shot chipped the crossbar and went out of play. His second penalty shot went over the goal. So I guess the angel's presence was felt after all, even though he might not have been the right one for the job.

I also have to say that I didn't engage in any conversation with Bobogel when I performed the ritual. This was my second mistake, whereas he probably would've recommended another angel. This was a good experience nonetheless and I will keep it in mind from now on.

Scott Stenwick said...

It sounds like this is about the portion of the Heptarchia that has not been fully explored, the system of the Ministers. According to the diaries, the King and Prince rule for the full day, and the Ministers rule according to the "six parts of the day." The reason that I didn't cover the system of Ministers in my book is that it is based on Dee's 1588 edition of the Heptarchia, which barely covers the Ministers at all. Dee was never given an overview of their individual powers, he was only told that they existed and that their names should be written on the various talismans.

Even the "six parts of the day" is not entirely clear. Does it mean you divide the whole day and night into six equal parts? Or base it on sunrise/sunset like with planetary hours? For that matter, does day start at sunrise as in the Western Esoteric system, or at sunset as in the Jewish system? I can see arguments for either of those. Basically, there are things you could try to work with an individual Minister, but it's not clear from the diaries how to do it or why you would want to.

The way Dee's Heptarchia works is that when you summon the King, the Prince and Ministers will also appear. When you summon the Prince, the Ministers will also appear. I never have delved very deep into the Ministers, but if anybody is looking for some experimental Heptarchial work, it seems to me that there's a lot there that could be worked out.

Scott Stenwick said...

There definitely are some inconsistencies in the construction of the Sigillum Dei Aemeth.

A great resource for exploring those issues is "The Magic Seal of Dr. John Dee" by Colin Campbell. I saw him present on the topic before his book came out, and I found it to be a lot more convincing than I expected. Whether we're talking "inconsistencies" or "mistakes," though, is an open question that has been a subject of some debate among Enochian scholars. It's hard to prove either way.

Unfortunately, the book has been out of print for a number of years and is fairly expensive, but I don't know of a better treatment of the subject.

Scott Stenwick said...

There is a lot to be said for doing the work yourself and not relying on what any particular other person has to say. That is the reason my books are more about outlining the procedures rather than long, involved accounts of personal experiences and the like. The point is that you do the work, and see what results you get. The experiences of others are never going to be as meaningful or useful to you as your own.

Scott Stenwick said...

It is rather nice to see that more people are interested in Renaissance forms of magick these days, including grimoire magick, alchemy, and of course the Enochian system. There's a lot of lore out there, and more of it is being explored all the time.

Manuel Martinez said...

Few who read know a great secret, my studies will continue, enlighten each other. I'll be checking in, hope to hear more from the seekers, but if any wish to take the next step I can tell you if you on the right track.

Scott Stenwick said...

Okay, I finally got all of that cleaned up.

If I could make a request, I would really appreciate it going forward if we could refrain from posting a bunch of messages here and then going back and deleting them. It creates extra work for me and leaves the forum discussion kind of confusing, because then part of the conversation is missing.

If you want to ask me a question that you don't want to leave up on the forum, I'd much rather you just email me privately. This forum is supposed to be for discussion, not private messages. I don't really want to turn off the ability for posters to delete their messages, because sometimes that's useful, but I may have to at some point if this keeps up.

Thanks!

Manuel Martinez said...

Sorry it's a personal thing I didn't like how I wrote my posts writing errors galore. It's really not my style but sadly all of this is being done on one of those iPhones, if you would bare with me, my earlier posts gave even me the impression were rants of a crazy person, even though you may have understood me, i would rather leave some of dee's actual quotes with my expanded reference, and inference, and refurbish my old posts. I'm taking the time to write everything by hand my hints on heptarchia are comeing back, and I don't know if you accept pdf post, because I'm put the first and second page of loagaeth into pdf because a general post is way to big, mine is very complete to the letter except the changes by dees to fill the boxes correctly. I'm thinking in a bigger mind set I'm going to have copies of my work on the computer dated for reference, and anyone who tries to say my works there's, proof who I a am, but to also spread it in the enochian studying circles so what I write here is exactly there. Like a little before I will put challenges and when some one answers correctly, we will go deeper into heptarchia. Truthfully if I could have edited my posts would have like that better. I'm working 12 hrs each day my posts will less frequent but more legible. There will be no more deleting, but everything I said before will be referenced with page it came from, and date of the days it happened from the journal. My goal by the end of this year is to have the enochian calender completed, and have it understood. Sorry again

Manuel Martinez said...

P.s. I'm putting the challenge between lodges OTO, GD, Rosecrucian particularly, others our accepted but It will be a test of the most learned.

Scott Stenwick said...

As a point, I hope you are not sitting there thinking that in some way I speak for the OTO, because I totally don't. The OTO does not even have an official position on Enochian, just a lot of initiates like me who are interested in it.

Manuel Martinez said...

No that doesn't matter your at least somewhat experienced and may like the challenge, if not I can leave your blog off the least if you like?

Manuel Martinez said...

Doesn't have a official postion, I find that more devastating, that only says they study what's studied, not learning, no offence.

Scott Stenwick said...

I really do not understand what you mean by that. Lots of OTO initiates practice some form of Enochian, but there is no particular methodology that is specifically endorsed by the leadership. Why should there be? Why would the fact that the order is open to experimentation be, in your words, "devastating?"

Honestly, if you find that approach problematic you might as well leave me off your list or whatever it is. It seems to me that the whole point of magick is doing the work to find out what works and what doesn't, but if that isn't how you see it, we clearly are not going to come to any sort of understanding.

Dacia Pacea said...

Sorry to intervene. I just have two questions:

1. Can the Enochian angels be used to empower talismans?

2. When the system is used for cursing, is it necessary to create the physical black circle for protection, like you mentioned in your planetary ritual?

Scott Stenwick said...

No need to apologize. Discussion is why the forum is here.

1. Yes, they absolutely can. You place the talisman in the center of the Sigillum, and ask them to empower it when you conjure them.

2. Before you try to curse somebody with the Enochian entities, make absolutely sure that it's what you want to do. In a lot of cases, there's an easier and less destructive way to get what you want.

That being said, from a technical standpoint, I always recommend that before you try cursing, you want your temple to be as complete as you can make it. So that would ideally include the twelve banners that form a circle around the Holy Table. However, with Enochian you don't use the circle the way you do in planetary operations. The Sigillum itself serves to contain the conjured entities. So the setup is a little different. In a way, using the Holy Table and Sigillum is kind of like turning the conventional magick circle inside-out.

Dacia Pacea said...

It's great to know that, especially since the election timings from the Picatrix are hard to find. I could also try using planetary energies, but it's good to have another fine option to use :D

I'm not planning to curse anyone for the time being, and I still don't have the right conditions for a proper Enochian temple. I just wanted to be clear on procedures. I totally get it! :D

Thanks!

Manuel Martinez said...

By the study I spread of dee'a true methodology, I speak of cryptological, notations that disembarks every letter in the way of aledaria soyga vocor, and what I ment was, or I rather say experimentation is great, more extraordinary, but i don't see in these angles, when the page says blood of a screech owl do I use any thing more perfect. If I use a black or white owl will the spirit feel afflicted, and have the tendency to disobey. And by the means devastating founder of the oto alestier Crowley forgive the spelling was a genius of a man opposite to my nature but tore apart the sysptem piece by piece, used it best as possibly he could. Never the seeing the original but yet showed beyond the knowledge needed or seen, I'm just a lingering spirit just trying to help before I pass, if to literally if I have kids they can have my books if they want them, but complete what I want is a compendium of knowledge which to complete is over a thousand pages, and this truthfully tells you how to create the great book for the great one not to be used by us, and the rest of the true magic collective.

Manuel Martinez said...

But as you wish I will longer print any of my heptarchia work. I don't think you understood me or miss took what I ment, but that ok till the next life.

Scott Stenwick said...

Manuel: Perhaps not. Since this is your work, only you can be the judge of that.

Dacia: You can use the simple electional timing method that I outlined here:

http://ananael.blogspot.com/2016/06/simple-electional-timing.html

It's not as exact as the timings used in the Picatrix, but it does work pretty well and is a lot simpler.

Dacia Pacea said...

Yes, I'm well aware of your article and I've been using this simple method since the beginning of my practice.

I only wanted to work with the Picatrix timings in order to further experiment with the lunar mansion angels. But now that I know the enochian system is also good for talismans, I'll be using it if I'll even need to make one - I like the vibe of the enochian ritual better than the planetary one. It's not that in find the latter disturbing, but it doesn't give me the degree of mystical energy that the former does.

Thanks and blessings!

Dacia Pacea said...

And Manuel, since you're so eager to spread your/the true methodology, you don't need to go around challenging the GD, OTO, or any other lodges or magicians. You could work with it for a fair amount of time that will produce reasonable statistical results. Write detailed accounts of your work, experiments and conclusions and then incorporate them in an essay. Post the essay on various online sources with magick topics. Then wait for others to test it and send you feedback.

Scott Stenwick said...

The thing about cryptological analysis of the Enochian material is that even though I am pretty sure there's a bunch of interesting stuff in there, I'm a practical magician and mostly interested in making the system work. I'm not that big on linguistics and symbolism except to the extent that it helps me get results.

A number of folks have published material decoded from Dee's sources using various approaches, and I have yet to see anything that impressed me all that much. Maybe Manuel's stuff is the exception, but I would have to actually see it to make any sort of assessment. I wasn't clear on a lot of what he was saying.

For example, here's one that should be simple, except that it isn't. In the Angelic Keys, you have numbers represented by series of Angelic letters. How do the letters relate to the numbers? In theory, cracking that would let you construct a native system of gematria for the Angelic alphabet.

Dacia Pacea said...

I wasn't clear on alot of it either, perhaps because of the erratic way in which he expressed himself. I just got the part where he wanted to challenge you to use a system he found to be true(r) than the original, but he didn't actually present any system. That's why I told him to write an essay and make it public for anyone to tackle the system he will introduce.

I admit that I've bugged you along the way with several stuff, like the location of the outer planets on the ToL and the lunar mansion angels, but at least I've done a ritual on one of them and presented my preliminary conclusion - a presence was intensely felt and now I'm waiting for the outcome.

If Manuel has really made a breakthrough into what I understand is a not fully decoded system, then he should publish his work, not brag about it on various blogs and challenge lodges or magicians to use something not known to them. It's like telling you he's found the philosopher stone and challenging you to try it yourself, without any "recipe" :)

Scott Stenwick said...

Yeah, I am willing to try out different procedures than the ones I usually work with, but to do that I need to know what it is.

The system of the Ministers is potentially pretty interesting, except that (A) Dee doesn't give much guidance for working with them and (B) they're supposed to just show up along with the King and Prince. And there are no hints as to their particular powers.

As far as bugging me goes, that's totally fine. If I didn't want people to ask questions, I wouldn't enable comments here on the blog or have a forum page. So ask away! I'm glad to hear that your lunar mansion experiments are going on, and I'm looking forward to hearing the results.

Dacia Pacea said...

I've been wondering myself what the roles, traits and powers of the Ministers are. Perhaps they each have different powers that derive from the ones of their specific King and Prince. Like when I used Brorges to stop those guys from disturbing me with the intense noise produced by their vehicles. Brorges' general trait might be to guard the gates of death - I believe this mean he can be used to kill and resurrect(???) someone - but as I said on the fb post, I thought he also has the ability to restrict, which turned out to be true. Perhaps he doesn't have that ability, but one of his Ministers (or some of them) has it, and the charge was passed down the line. Too bad I'm still struggling with my spirit communication skills, or I'd start investigating.

PS: could you please add a link to your book on the Aires? I'd like to post it on fb, along with the links to your other 2 books on Enochian.

Manuel Martinez said...

Numbers are very important place to each letter, and color, to each respectful beings as you should know by completing the calender, unless you didn't take the time to look or care which letters are upper case.

Manuel Martinez said...

P.s. A. There perfect guidance, B it does describe how they do work. Take the time read, how many times do I have to say you all have been tricked or by sheer lazyness in transmitting letters, just plain skiped pages. It's there, that's all.

Manuel Martinez said...

Without further knowledge, the circle will never be permanent.

Scott Stenwick said...

Manuel: I will take a look at those references again, and I appreciate you sharing your insights. At the same time, I've been studying the original material for years so I don't think this has anything to do with "laziness" or "being tricked." Interpreting the Dee material is not trivial, and as you work through it there are all sorts of decisions you have to make on what to include and what not to include when putting together a practical, workable methodology.

Here's just one example - "6 times seven doesn't make sense. It needs to be seven time seven." Are you sure? It doesn't say that anywhere in the Dee material with respect to the Ministers. It's true that 7 times 7 does show up all over the place, but how do you know that this is not some sort of deeper symbolism beyond what's explained by Dee? I'm not meaning to be flippant at all - those kinds of things are found throughout the diaries. Maybe in this case the symmetry is deliberately broken, and it were, how would you know?

Note that I'm not trying to argue that this is one way or the other, by the way. I'm just wondering how you can be so sure something that seems to "make sense" is really the original intent without support from the diaries themselves. And by "support," I mean an explicit statement, not a pattern that may be read as suggesting something.

Dacia: My book on the Aires is not finished and hasn't been published yet. When it is, you and the other readers here will be the first to know.



Manuel Martinez said...

With every respect, I spent my years studing the photo films of the original, and found every inconsistency in the modern books after dee. This what I'm speaking of alone is close to five pages of missing work and more directly it wasn't published because it's to illegible, I can read it just fine, so I don't see the problem except lazyness, or more directly to keep it out.

Manuel Martinez said...

Again lazyness not on you part, modern transcribers using the same material with the same mistakes for centuries.

Manuel Martinez said...

Book of aires, you need to take you time, I can say you need to work on it much more, pay attention to how each sigil represents four degrees of the zodiac, you may want to wait for a little while. Are you going to speak where the emperor world is 300 leagues under the artic, or explain the aythers that are in hell, purgatory, of heaven, also explained in books. I mean the picture represent this is right after the calls. I'm not trying to bring you down, but the opposite.

The age of magic will return, like a thief in the night,

Manuel Martinez said...

If you met me you would say I look young like a child, but if you get to know me and you would know I'm old too old. To teach, but to teach what has already been forgotten. A blessing in disguise.

Scott Stenwick said...

Okay. I misunderstood what you meant with regard to laziness. I agree with you that a lot of the modern books miss enough of the material to be an issue, and have complained about that myself. I don't know if it has to do with people being lazy, or people deciding this or that is important without explaining it, but for whatever reason I find a lot of it either incomplete or embellished with problematic modern attributions.

Now my stuff does not include everything either, but I do my best to explain how and why I include what I do. Most of my focus is on putting forth a workable system to contact the various angels rather than deep interpretation and exposition. I figure that if the student has the complete methodology available, he or she can contact the angels and get the details for him or herself.

Manuel Martinez said...

I can say I understand what your meaning, a quick grimoire, that any one can use, but there is a special intended purpose others and such as your self must understand, when I mean ascension, I mean a purpose of becoming an ascended being in material form. Enoch's path. Religiously or to better effect a continuation of religion, sounds far fetched but better specified that's what dee admits. Misuse of this work in purer forms can have damming effects, yes in this life but say woe to the soul the worst it can cause the soul to descend into a lesser ayther for punishment till the soul extradition from god and our existence. This more then anything my greatest warning. This work invoke part of the mind diagrams are made of true physics and magic, a strong enough mind can invoke the forces by shear memory. If I can explain why a quick grimoire won't work each spirit has it's own nature in time and space, what ever that has been done, but only in that time space to occur exactly right again. This is true to all grimoires.

Manuel Martinez said...

Yes a person can ascend back into the ayther threw that life spent there. This is both true for angels and demons both rising and falling, if the spirits can't be found in its usual place. The calender when fully understood surmises that and the days of the year. I have a literal thousand pages of notes and more I just keep to my self not wrote down, to publish everything would take years at the rate I work. So forgive me if I can't put out a book, right away. I personally wanted it to be in the lodges only as a start till it will be accepted into the general public, typically because of its nature and association with religion, and catholism particularly. King James was around the same time as dee's and fear his work so much he removed the book of Enoch and other magical books in the bible.

Manuel Martinez said...

That's my own contention, there is another site in word press, but i don't think dee would ever remove the book of Enoch from the bible, Francis bacon maybe. But as the queens spy glass dee would have met king James on behalf of queen Elisabeth .

Scott Stenwick said...

Up until the early part of the seventeenth century, the Book of Enoch was only found in the Bible used by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. The compilers of the King James Bible did remove some material, but they never had a copy of the Book of Enoch. Outside of Ethiopia, Enoch was excluded from the Christian canon by the fourth century.

It's unlikely that Dee lived long enough to see the book himself, or even hear of it being discovered by the West - and he was certainly interested in obtaining a copy. Much of his work on Loagaeth and Soyga was related to unraveling the Enochian mysteries that he believed it contained, to such a degree that it influenced the modern name of the system.

Manuel Martinez said...

We'll I can't say that correct int the British museum is a Latin translation of pseudo cyprian, that contains a fragment from the 8th century. And enochian was coin by modern lodges, it was suppose be Enoch's books. Holy art of gebofal, the tables of serapasan, adamatical art, books of creation. All actual terms used.

Dacia Pacea said...

This is not quite related to magick, but it's related to Dee and Kelley's sessions with the angels.

I've read the book The Secret History of the World some years back and it briefly mentioned Dee and Kelley. The author resumed to relate only about their work in Prague and Kelley tricking/forcing Dee into wife swapping. Their tail and with Kelly seeing what he/Dee thought as the Whore of Babylon, and the encounter produced great fear in them. Or at least that's what's in the book.

Do you know anything about this? Could this be related to the enochian system being some sort of key to understanding the biblical Apocalypse, as I've read somewhere?

Scott Stenwick said...

What you are posting there is pretty seriously garbled. There was a scrying session in which Kelley reported that he and Dee were being instructed to "hold all they had in common, including their wives" and apparently on one occasion they did swap wives. A number of scholars have pointed out that this session seems a little ham-handed compared to a lot of the others, and might have been Kelley trying to see how far he could push Dee. It is hard to say for sure, though.

There was also a session in which Kelley saw a woman who is described as the "Daughter of Fortitude." The session was one of the last that Dee and Kelley did together, but my guess is that it was more the wife-swapping incident rather than this particular vision that caused the end of their partnership. There's no evidence in the diaries linking the Daughter of Fortitude to the "Whore of Babylon." A lot of Thelemites (myself included) think that it could have been a communication from the Thelemic goddess Babalon, who shows up in Crowley's Vision and the Voice, but that's a modern attribution that Dee would not have made.

In fact, the "Biblical Apocalypse" as taught by fundamentalist Christians only dates back to William Miller in the early 1800's. In Dee's time it was not understood in the same context at all. All the rapture/tribulation nonsense is entirely new, based on complex scriptural interpretations that predict a whole bunch of stuff that has already been proved wrong. So I wouldn't worry about that too much.

"Apocalypse" doesn't even mean "calamity" or "end of the world." It means revelation, which is why it is described in the Book of Revelation. Revelation basically means realization. In my opinion, the apocalyptic language in the Angelic Keys is all about a personal apocalypse (that is, a personal revelation, not a personal calamity or anything like that). It's about experiencing the spiritual truth of all things - nothing more, but nothing less.

The idea that Enochian will cause the physical "end of the world"-type apocalypse comes from exactly one source - Donald Tyson. And in my opinion, Tyson has no idea what he's talking about on the subject. He combines material from the diaries with a bunch of modern interpretation that would have been alien to Dee, and more familiar to today's megachurch evangelicals.

Here's a thought - do you really think if it were possible to end the physical world by using Enochian magick, somebody wouldn't have done it already? People have been practicing magick for a very long time, and Dee's material has been in print since Causaubon in 1659. The more you think about it, the more you realize that the whole concept is really, really dumb.

At least, that's my opinion on the subject. I've run into Tyson fanboys online who swear up and down that he's right, but as far as I can tell, the world is still here. Funny how that works.

Dacia Pacea said...

Sorry for the misunderstanding. By biblical Apocalypse I meant the symbolism in the book of Revelation, not what the vast majority of people/christians interpret as the end of the world by some sort of cataclysmic event. Again I wrote in a hurry and my native mind frame of speaking came ahead of the one in English. My bad.

I meant to say that perhaps they were lead down a row which explained the symbolism in John's visions, but they dropped the work when they encountered what the above mentioned book referred to as the Whore, because as it's mentioned there, they became frightened. Nothing more is mentioned about Dee after that note, if I recall correctly.

Scott Stenwick said...

It is one of the last communications, but I think it is more likely that the wife-swapping incident was the real reason Dee and Kelley split. As far as elements of the Enochian system reflecting the symbolism of Revelation, that is true - it certainly does. And it would be reasonable to suggest that perhaps this means that the Enochian material contains some clues to interpreting the apocalypse of John.

However, when you talk about Enochian containing the "keys to the apocalypse," what you've heard or read is Tyson. And Tyson, as far as I can tell, believes that if you pronounce enough of the Angelic material all at once, the world will physically end. In Tetragrammaton he argued that Aleister Crowley working the Aethyrs "cracked the door open" and caused the two world wars. That's flat-out ridiculous.

Not that I'm accusing you of believing that, understand. It's just that when Tyson uses that verbiage, he apparently means it literally. Like modern-evangelical-rapture literally, which has nothing to do with how Dee would have viewed it.

Manuel Martinez said...

Well finally getting some interesting chatter, we'll if they were tricked jane dee's own prayer, with dee tricked themselves, rather as each represents the continents in navalges works, rather dee is dignified jane dee still dignified, sorry wife of Kelly dis gloried but soon to be dignified and Kelly with out glory. Yes I can back up further another night. To summon whirl winds I the north, dragons in the south, and hurl a rock from the the sky a rightious gift to lose country's without glorie. And punishment is learned in the calls as we'll the lands of mercy. Lady of heaven, and the whore of Babylon can be found, in the texts. P.s. Books carry hints angels hold whole truths demons carry the acts, that's to you Dacia

Dacia Pacea said...

@Scott I might have read about the apocalypse in your article about Tyson :) Again, I was referring to Revelation, but i tend to forget that's the English term in the bible. In Romanian it's Apocalypse, and that's what I meant by my native mind frame of speaking coming ahead of the English one.

Of course I don't believe this or any system can bring the end of the world LOL. This looks to me like this idea is taken from the Japanese anime series The Slayers, where the main character uses the most powerful spell in the series' universe. If she were to chant it wrong, the spell would have gone haywire and collapse the whole universe in on itself :) But that's just Japanese wild imagination - the series is great though.

Anyway, that book is more about the evolution of consciousness, than details about real historical events. At least that's how I understood it.

@Manuel I appreciate your comment, but i can't make much out of it. Are you saying Dee's wife was behind the swapping? It makes sense to me what you say about books, angels and demons, but i don't see how it would fit in these particular cases: wife swapping and the alleged whore.

Manuel Martinez said...

No jane dee wasn't behind it, but both jane and dee took it to a separate prayer, away from Kelly and his wife. And reluctantly got the same answer. A mark of unity of man with women, a free love society, while men to men can't mix, nether women to women. Unless a dark spirit invaded, this age was not ready for this type of love or human relation. But a perfect human is a whole being, which literally god says typical bible man should not be alone so as you go in this art, a new evolution comes invalved.

Whore of Babylon is taught in the decention side of this art, one I take no involvement or recomend, or ascension in this art, it's two fold path. Both lady's will came at the same time, time isnt relevant, I'll add more about the lady, but you should be looking for the demon prince bezagal of the Turks for more information, and north of Israel in a black basalt synagogue will be born the antichrist. Not enough time but what do you want to know exactly, just about the lady or something specific.

Dacia Pacea said...

So you're saying the wife swapping was a step towards a liberal society where people could have sex with anyone of the opposite sex?

I will look into Bezagal when I'll have the time. Thanks.

Manuel Martinez said...

In a general sense yes, but yet still keeping to ones spouse, and a love for all. Now as the angels said it to pronounce it forward, in the angelic tongue would destroy the world or better in a sense restart it. If you believe in vibration alone, a small vibration can rise a ocean, if spoken correctly. Now what would the words of god do. It has supposedly existed in the three privious worlds, and forgive me because in tired five parts of time.

Dacia Pacea said...

Aha I get it.

Perhaps the destruction of the world they were referring to is one metaphorical, as in the destruction of social dogmas and mind sets and bringing in a newer pattern of thinking and living. Perhaps this could even be linked to the age of Aquarius. I dunno. I just speculate :)

Scott Stenwick said...

That is not a bad interpretation at all. There are numerous cases during Dee and Kelley's sessions where the angels talk about the coming age and so forth, and then in Aleister Crowley's Vision and the Voice there are all sort of references to the New Aeon that inform a number of Thelemic principles, such as they are.

Of course, a lot of Dee purists discount Crowley's Vision and the Voice, but I always recommend people check it out for themselves and see what they think. It certainly is colored by Crowley's world view, but Dee's work was colored by his as well.

Dacia Pacea said...

Come to think of it now, I guess it could be linked to the truth. I mean humanity went through the end of Kali Yuga some 100+ years ago, Crowley brought in the start of the Aeon of Horus a little after that and now (give or take some decades) we're experiencing the beginning of the Age of Aquarius. Thinking about the rigid mind set of society even in the Renaissance era (with the catholic church enforcing its beliefs far and wide), that span all the way to the Victorian era, Crowley brought in a uranian change with his liberal views - many conspiracy sites portrait him as a sexual pervert (and a satanist LOL what did you expect, right?).

There is a current growing in my country that tries to bring our ancient ancestors back in the spotlight, since they've been almost erased from history. Anyway, some 5000 years ago this land was ruled by priestess queens and by the law of matriarchy. It appears that men and women were free to mate with more than one partner in order to procreate. Not far from here is the ancient land of the Amazons which probably isolated themselves after patriarchy was installed. A little further to the east people of the same kin were still being ruled by queens for millennia, the best example being queen Tomyris of the massagetae, who killed king Darius. Even today there's a saying here that you have only one mother, but could have multiple fathers. I guess the meaning of that changed over the ages, but i believe it dates way back.

My point is that it seems humans have been living in liberal societies in the ancient past. That had changed at some point and perhaps it's time that era returns.

Dacia Pacea said...

Portray*

Manuel Martinez said...

Spiritually, literally, and more then speculative material sense things will happen as the hearts of men and women change, new formations will begin to happen. Time is slow how will you begin to speed it up. My own quote.

Manuel Martinez said...

P.s portray to whom, I been waiting for scott to answer. Coming to a week end, may have a day off, if anything interesting has come into play.

Scott Stenwick said...

Waiting for me to answer what? Did you ask me a question? I scrolled back through the last month and didn't see one from you.

Manuel Martinez said...

Not me Dacia, portray means to describe, I think she wants you or me to describe the new aeon from crowleys or Dee's stand point. It was her last word, after you, so I don't think it was asked of me.

Manuel Martinez said...

But if anything has any checked on those references or understood the wheel further, our calender?

Scott Stenwick said...

Oh, okay. I read the post from Dacia as a statement rather than a question. If there is a question in there, though, I would be happy to answer it to the best of my ability.

There is a lot of disagreement about how literal Crowley intended his aeonic model to be, how it relates to the signs of the zodiac, and so forth. Sometimes he implies that the system is astrological at its base, while other times he writes as if the aeons are divided up along different principles. And that doesn't even bring in alternative interpretations, like what the Maatians use.

Personally I have some of my own ideas, but going through all the background of it is more extensive than I really can fit into a comment here. It also is not "orthodox" but rather drawn from my own personal work, so it's hard to say how meaningful or useful it would be to anyone else.

Dacia Pacea said...

I wrote Portray* because my phone's spelling aid is acting up. It wrote down Portrait instead of Portray. And since I can't edit my comments, I'm forced to add additional ones with the correct words.

Scott Stenwick said...

I figured it was something like that. It would really be nice if blogger implemented some sort of an edit feature, but I suspect it is pretty low on their priority list.

Dacia Pacea said...

Yup, too bad :(

Manuel Martinez said...

We'll then to the next weekend, hope to here something new.

Dacia Pacea said...

A quick update on my work with the Heptarchy angels.

(My ability to hear them has increased since the "incident" I told you about regarding the... "supernatural assistant" - I haven't tested my scrying sight yet, but I'll do it when I first get the chance to work a more lengthy ritual, long conversation and so on, not just for practical needs)

I called on Befafes last Tuesday and talked to him a bit before giving him the charge. He said he wanted me to give him a red candle next Tuesday. I asked him if I should inscribe it with his name and/or sigil, to which he answered either way is fine. So I'm planning to light it in the hour of the Sun and inscribe it with his sigil and his name in enochian letters.

I also called on Brorges last night and he asked for a gray candle today, in the hour of Saturn. I asked him if I can give him a candle in another color, because gray candles are hard to find. He replied that a white votive is fine, like the ones we have in churches here. So I lit one today, inscribed with his sigil and his name in enochian letters.

So it seems offerings can be made to them not just during the ritual. That is if my mind's not playing tricks on me :)

I'll just have to see how this works.

Scott Stenwick said...

The part about making offerings outside of the ritual proper is definitely something that you can do, and it will help under the right circumstances.

Let me know how it goes!

Dacia Pacea said...

Sure will. I'll just wait a week or two to see how it goes out, but so far, I'm happy with the results :)

Dacia Pacea said...

I have a question regarding specific practical uses of the Heptarchy angels. Actually I have two questions.

Which of them would you use for healing? I'm thinking of using Bornogo for his altering of the Corruption of Nature into perfection trait. Also I'm thinking of Baligon for his aerial powers, but i suspect these powers refer to weather, rather than the powers of elemental Air. Or I could be mistaking.

Which of them would you use for money and/or wealth?

Dacia Pacea said...

Update on the Befafes and Brorges rituals. It's been almost 1month since I did them and things were looking good for a few weeks, until the target started acting up again. This past weekend I had to physically confront the bastard to the point of kicking his ass. But I don't want to resort to that even if it would be way easier for me to break his leggs or something, because I've had enough trouble with the law in the past, and I generally hate the police and authorities :)

The down side is that I didn't have any direct link to him, and there's almost no way of obtaining one. Not even a picture, due to various circumstances.

The way I see it, the spirits did their best to solve the problem, and I guess they're still at it, but less successful because a weak link - I used a piece of paper inscribed with the dick-head's name and address, into which i projected a mental image of him as sharp as I could make it. That's why I chose to send not one, but two spirits. Perhaps me confronting him was part of the mundane action I needed to take for the spell to be more successful.

It wasn't a curse per say, more like an attempt to persuade the idiot into renouncing to do some stuff that really affects me and others - a binding in a loose sense. He's got some kind of OCD that makes him do it. Some divination I did over time pointed to the fact that he may be tormented by some spirits, but not possessed. This could explain the dark aura I feel around him and his constant grumpiness and anger. I've thought of using Bnapsen in him to fix this, but i don't have a direct link and frankly, it's his problem. But if his OCD is the cause of spirits, I'm thinking of changing tactics.

So anyway, here's the update. I'll post more of things change in any way.

Dacia Pacea said...

I think i asked you this on the group when I posted about enochian, but you must have missed it. It's ok though, I went ahead with one option.

Why are there two versions of the Holy Table? Are they both correct?

Scott Stenwick said...

No, one of them is a printing error. The correct version is this one:

http://hermetic.com/norton/images/holytbl1.gif

The other one is from Meric Causaubon, who either unintentionally or deliberately reversed the order of the letters on the Table.

Causaubon published the Dee material to show how deluded Dee was in his spirit operations, so it wouldn't put it past him to have changed the letters so that the operations in the True and Faithful Relation wouldn't work as well for anyone who tried them. Of course, though, that's just speculation on my part.

Dacia Pacea said...

Phew, I dodged a bullet on this one :)

I guess intuition has lead me to choose the right one. I've been talking to someone who's interested in the system and I've also directed him to the group and your enochian articles. But having revisited them, it came to me that he might ask me about this issue. Since I didn't know the answer myself, I felt it was safer to ask you first instead of throwing out my personal assumptions.

Thanks for the answer!

Dacia Pacea said...

It confused me more back then when I saw that the table shown in the picture of you article on the Heptarchy has the other pattern on it - Causaubon

Scott Stenwick said...

Well, that sucks. With the center almost entirely covered, I never noticed, but you're right.

Off to find a better picture for that article...

Dacia Pacea said...

Can I create a sigil link made out of the someone's name on a planetary kamea, and then use it when working with the Enochian angels corresponding to that specific planet? Or is it better not to mix systems? In which case im thinking of creating the sigil out of the name written in Enochian.

Thank you!

Scott Stenwick said...

Yes, you can. Create the sigil with the person's name, and place it in the center of your Sigillum Dei Aemeth when you perform the ritual. If you're working with the Watchtowers and doing an elemental ritual, use the Moon kamea as with the elemental work.

I just use by-sound transliteration between Hebrew and Angelic, so I think you won't find many differences (if any) between the name written in Angelic and the Hebrew version. So it should work whether you transliterate to Angelic or not, at least the way I do it.

Dacia Pacea said...

Alright! Thank you for adding the extra tips on transliteration and Watchtowers!

Dacia Pacea said...

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but i noticed that working with the Heptarchy makes me sleep less, but not get tired at all. Only some 5-6 instead of the regular 8-9. I wonder if you or any of the people who will be seeing this have also experienced this side effect.

Dacia Pacea said...

And one more thing. There's a guy on the fb group that keeps saying the Heptarchia spirits are not Enochian, but regular spirits. Is this true?

Scott Stenwick said...

I honestly have no idea exactly what you mean.

The Heptarchial spirits are Celestials like the traditional Qabalistic angels, but they are definitely from Dee and Kelley's system. Dee and Kelley never used the term "Enochian," so it's kind of hard to say how you would draw a line between what is "Enochian" and what isn't. As I mentioned in my Introduction to Enochian Magick presentation, I use the term "Enochian" only because that's the term modern magicians most commonly use for the system.

The term "Enochian" is actually Golden Dawn, and the Golden Dawn didn't do much work with the Heptarchials. They focused on the Great Table. So you could argue from that perspective that the Great Table angels are the ones that are "Enochian." Maybe that's the point said individual was trying to make, I can't really say. On the other hand, if by "Enochian" one means "the angels contacted by Dee and Kelley," then the Heptarchials are clearly "Enochian."

Is this person claiming that there is some fundamental functional difference involved, or are they just nitpicking terminology? If the former, I would like to know what that functional difference is. If the latter, I would say that it's a pointless diversion that's really not worth anyone's time. Really, who cares what you call them if there's no functional difference?

Dacia Pacea said...

I actually can't say. He kept repeating that the angels of the Heptarchy are not part of the "enochian" system - I added the quotation marks. He also said that the angels of the Great Table are part of that system. So I guess he wastalking from a GD point of view... But I actually don't know what he meant exactly LOL. I tagged you there at the time, but the discussion went cold quickly after that and other posts took over. I was amazed by his repeated statements that I had to double check to see if I missed something :)

Scott Stenwick said...

He probably was talking from the GD point of view then, although Pat Zalewski does include some information on the Heptarchials in Golden Dawn Enochian Magic. Just so you know, tagging me is not a very good way to get a hold of me, and I also really don't care enough to wade into arguments over something as trivial as terminology. They work the same; that's what counts.

As a point, though - if this person is of the opinion that the Holy Table, Sigillum Dei Aemeth, PELE ring, and so forth are "Enochian," he or she should be aware that they were all received by Dee and Kelley before the Heptarchial material. If not, they are definitely talking GD or Aurum Solis or some other system that doesn't use the equipment for Great Table work.

As a matter of fact, back in the day, Benjamin Rowe was convinced that all of the funriture and tools should ONLY be used with Heptarchials. I disagree with that, as I've commented in my books, but it is kind of funny that someone who knew the diaries very well came to basically the opposite conclusion.

Dacia Pacea said...

I didn't tag you there for a debate. That would be silly. I tagged you there for something because I figured you could share more info on the specific powers of the Heptarchy angels. It then turned into a short debate, but i managed to end it shortly after as a stalemate.

Anyway, that's not important. I only wanted an extra confirmation that the Heptarchy angels are indeed part of the system Dee was presented, known these days as Enochian :)

I thank you for that awfor sharing the stuff on the GD and AS.

Dacia Pacea said...

I'd like to talk about the pronunciation of the Angelic language. I for one have little trouble reading it, even though many words have 3 or 4 consonants grouped together.

I guess this is because in Romanian we pronounce the consonants together with Î silent. Î is a vowel in Romanian, but we don't accentuate it when we pronounce the consonants, like English speakers do. For instance you say D as DEE, whereas we say Dhî - both the H and Î being silent. It's kinda hard for me to explain how Î is pronounced, so I've added this link in which you'll find a small audio sound of it.

http://www.learnro.com/romanian-vowels-pronunciation

I hope this makes sense and will help people pronounce the Angelic words more easily.

What do you think?

Cardboard Heart said...

Scott, thank you for writing your two Enochian books and all your other explanations on the subject. I have an opportunity to get a gold signet ring, but the shape isn't square. There is enough space to have the characters engraved. Do you think this matters? The Pele ring explanations in all of the Enochian books I've read (since starting with both of yours, actually) show the same symbols in a square.

I'm hoping that the material and the symbols are more important than the shape of the metal. Since you've experimented quite a bit with different rings, I'm very curious to hear your opinion.

Also, can you point me to where I can find the actual quote about what the angels said to Dee and Kelley about the ring?

Thanks!

Scott Stenwick said...

@Dacia: I have not had a chance to listen to your sample yet, but as I see it anything that will help with the pronunciation is a good thing. I am not quite sure what you mean by DEE versus Dhi. Hopefully you are not trying to pronounce Angelic by saying the names of the letters, because that is totally wrong according to Dee's pronunciation notes.

You probably aren't doing that, but in case anybody on here is, as far as I know the idea of saying the English letter names comes from Leo Vinci, who published the first Enochian dictionary, GMICALZOMA, in the 1970's. The Stella Matutina seems to have done it in a handful of cases - for example, you see "MOR" rendered as "em-or" in the Regardie material, but not in Crowley's Liber Chanokh which was based on the material he got from Mathers.

Anyway, as I don't think that was actually what you are talking about, consider it an aside. It is an important one, though, since people are still throwing it around these days as if it is relevant to the original Dee system.

@Cardboard Heart: What I've seen done with rings in cases like that is to engrave the square outline along with the letters. That should work fine for sure. I haven't experimented with just the letters rendered onto some other shape without the outline. Note that it doesn't need to be a perfect square - I've used rings that were more rectangular before, and those work fine.

I don't have an exact citation for the quote about the ring, but if you have copy of John Dee's Five Books of Mystery (edited by Joseph Peterson) I believe it's in the Second Book - though I'm not completely sure about that. It's in the conversation with the archangel Michael where he reveals the shape of the ring, towards the end of the section.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Scott It's difficult for both of us to fully understand each other when communicating in writing about pronunciation :) We'd have to be talking face to face. Hope that small audio sound in the link will help you understand better what I'm trying to say.

By DEE I meant the way English speakers pronounce the letter D. It's the EE sound added in the pronunciation of most consonants. In contrast, we add a silent Î sound after most consonants - well not exactly silent, but it's not that pronounced as the EE sound added in English. For example HCOMA - I've found an English pronunciation as HehCOMA. I pronounce it HîCOMA, with HîC sounding kind of like a hiccup sound. Or to be more explicit, the Hî sound is what one would make when they're forcing themselves to empty their bowels :)

@CH I've found a pdf of the Joseph Peterson edited document which contains Dee's notes of his conversations with the angels, including Michael and Uriel. Part of it that is. I think there's something mentioned about the ring - I do remember seeing a sketch of it. I can't share the link to it, but i can share the link to the Google search that got me to it by accident, if you're interested.

Scott Stenwick said...

I figured it was something like that. I just needed to get my little rant in, because I think Angelic with English letter names inserted sounds ridiculous.

Actually, it sounds to me like you and I pronounce HCOMA the same way, with only a slight glottal stop between the H and C. Heh-COMA is a Golden Dawn expansion, with the e ("natural vowel" for Hebrew Heh) inserted after the H. For me it's more like "h'CO-mah."

You're right that it's a little more natural to pronounce GD-style if you're used to English, but it just takes a little practice to run the H and C closer together than that - which I'm convinced is the most correct way to say it.

Dacia Pacea said...

Exactly!

With that out of the way I just need to figure how to read the language without sounding like an automated voice recorder :)

Scott Stenwick said...

The pronunciation is in most cases a lot less difficult than the various "systems" make it out to be. In a lot of cases, the people who put those systems together just never bothered to work with the language and teach themselves to pronounce the consonants.

For example, I did catch part of your conversation about this over on Facebook. NAZPSAD is not a difficult word to say at all, and you certainly don't pronounce it like naz-pee-sad. Take a look at how Dee rendered it here:

https://phergoph.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/48claves.pdf

It's right there on the first page, and is written "nazpsad." No dashes, special vowel notations, nothing. Dee obviously did not consider it a difficult word that required any special treatment.

Throughout that document, Dee uses dashes or spaces to separate syllables when he wants you to pronounce a word in a way that isn't clear. So had he written it "naz-p-sad" or "naz p-sad" I might be willing to grant some credence to the idea that the P should be its own syllable. But even then, I would probably follow the P with a glottal stop or short schwa rather than saying "PEE."

The best way to pronounce NAZPSAD is as two syllables with short A sounds, just like it looks - "nahz-psahd." The P and S run together just fine if you actually practice saying the word that way. The fact that anybody thinks you "can't say it" makes me question how much Enochian work they've done, since that particular word is in the First Key which you use all the time.

Under that same system, are you really supposed to say HCOMA as "aych-co-mah?" I don't think so. As with most of those English consonant name constructions, it just sounds silly.

Dacia Pacea said...

Nice that you posted the pdf, thanks! Yes, the word NAZPSAD is written as a whole.

I suppose you're referring to my brief conversation with Aaron Leitch on the same question I've asked you above. I understand his point of view. I don't exactly agree with it, but i think I see how he came to that idea. It's way easier for a native English speaker to pronounce the words that way. But he did mention Dee using the English language of his time, which was still highly influenced by the earlier form of English that was spoken in say, the 11th century. Of course, like any tongue, it evolved into the form spoken in Tudor times - "Shakespearean English" :) But it was based on its former Germanic and Norse influence.

Modern German and Scandinavian languages still have many words containing several consonants put together, and those words are pronounced as they are, mainly. Without the addition of EE sounds that is.

Like the word WUNDERBAR (can't think of a more complicated one right now) where ND and RB are read as you explained above, rather than NeeDee and ReeBee.

Scott Stenwick said...

So what that system basically is, is a way for English speakers to pronounce the language that is just as easy as the old GD system and also just as contrived. It isn't original, either - it was first proposed by Leo Vinci, who published the first Enochian dictionary back in the 1970's. So the Leitch system is basically neo-Vinci, and I hated Vinci the first time around. It almost universally sounds dumb.

Take away that element and Leitch's other pronunciation bits are okay. He at least looked at the Dee pronunciation notes. But he really, really likes soft sounds such as G as J, even though Dee had notation for that (a small "dg") written above the G. In that same document, you can find a number of instances of it in the Aire Key - which, to me, demonstrates that Dee doesn't mean it that way when it isn't notated.

Dee's English isn't all that weird or archaic if you read through the diaries. I personally think that some of the constructions in Angelic that seem more like German simply show up because Dee also spoke German and spent a lot of time during his Enochian period in the court of Rudolph II. Overall, though, I tend to be pretty skeptical of "deep linguistic" approaches and don't think they have much to do with magick.

Cardboard Heart said...

@Scott I hadn't thought of including the square in the engraving. That solves the problem and makes that ring usable. Thanks a lot!

@Scott and @Dacia Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I managed to find the quote at the end of the first book. In Joseph Peterson's version, it's on p. 78. It's on p. 23 on the Clay Holden version of the first book on http://www.john-dee.org/ .

Scott Stenwick said...

You are very welcome. Out of curiosity, are you ordering your ring from someplace online? If so, I would be very interested if you could share the link. Enochian rings can sometimes prove surprisingly difficult to find, and a custom engraving place sounds like just the right sort of thing for that.

Cardboard Heart said...

I'd originally found a decently priced ring at a local antique place (which also does engraving). I held off on getting it because it isn't square. I looked some more and found some square 14k gold signet rings on overstock.com . This one looks ideal: http://bit.ly/2mn6NHv

The one review complains about it not having a solid back. I'm not sure if that means that it's too thin to have engraved.

This one has "solid" in the title, but isn't quite square: http://bit.ly/2mOEuyG

There are also a lot of oval gold signet rings on Etsy.

Scott Stenwick said...

Those are great. Thank you for the links!

Dacia Pacea said...

I wonder if these spirits could be used to lessen the magnitude of earthquakes, as in work to somehow release the tension between the plates through a series of smaller quakes rather that a big one. I'm thinking that out of the three (4 actually) spirits attributed with powers over the Earth, Hagonel-Bagenol would be the best choice, having the power over the operations of the Earth.

@CH cool rings!

Scott Stenwick said...

That would be my choice, too - Hagonel/Bagenol. If I were doing an operation like this, I probably would not worry too much about how it happens, but just make the charge that the effects of earthquakes would be diminished with the limitation that nothing else happens to injure people or damage property. It's definitely promising-sounding enough that I think experimentation would be worthwhile.

Dacia Pacea said...

I'll give it a try and get back with the results. There's a series of earthquakes here and I'm worried they could be a precursor off a bigger one. Thanks!

Pedro said...

This is for @Dacia Pacea who asked me to share my first enochian evocation experience. I originally posted this on wizardforum.com so I'm just copying and pasting here what I wrote there. Sorry guys, I'm busy today.

##################

Hi. Some of you might have seen that 6 days ago I opened a thread asking for recommendations of more advanced books about enochian because I didn't know how to make a proper ritual yet but I already knew all the system's theory. Then, I found a book that actually teaches that in details. I learned it and I decided I didn't need to wait anymore. So I started to make the necessary objects. I made everything in paper, the table, ensigns, sigilum, lamen and the ring. The table was the most complicated one although it's completely in paper. I spent 5 days doing that. Well, I don't have much time. All the other things I printed. Here it follows a picture of my paper holy "table":

http://i.imgur.com/btng0JI.jpg

After some research I concluded that this is actually the correct format of the table. Alister Crowley and other oculist's claim that this is actually inverted, isn't correct. Isaac Casaubon didn't make any mistake and he correctly reproduced the original John Dee's table on his book.

I don't like the way some people approach to enochian. I mean, I don't think you should call powerful spirits in order to have visions and obtain "knowledge". If you want knowledge, go read a book. Use evocations for asking for something that you really need in your life and couldn't get by yourself.

I was having some difficulties finding the right class of angels to help me with my needs. So I was told that the Kings can do everything. I decided to call the four kings (east, south, west, north). I gave a different task for each one of them.

I followed this order: Prayer of Enoch, Fundamental Obesance, First Key (angelic first and then english), Conjuration of the Kings, Charge. It seems that only the first key is necessary to summon the kings.

I was scared of doing this because I thought I was gonna suffer some kind of attacks while trying to sleep or experience some poltergeists phenomenons since I performed the ritual in my own room. BUT, I was protected by the Solomon's 3rd pentacle of Jupiter. I didn't use it during the ritual but I used after.

Nothing happened. I didn't feel anything during the ritual or after. But I have to say I'm not sensitive at all. I don't see spirits and I don't listen to them.

I saw some people saying that you start feeling something the moment you begin to study about enochian. Well, nothing happened to me. I read lot of things about it, I made all the stuffs, I wrote in enochian but nothing happened. Sometimes I think that people who say enochian has many bad side effects never actually practiced it and are just repeating what they heard about.

Scott Stenwick said...

The reputation of the system for producing bad outcomes or side effects or whatever is definitely exaggerated. I have posted articles here a number of times asking people to give me an example of somebody who was messed up by practicing Enochian, and nobody has ever been able to share a story of someone who wasn't already in pretty bad shape when they started.

If all you had to do was write some Enochian stuff or read a prayer or something to get poltergeist phenomena, somebody would have scientifically demonstrated the existence of poltergeists long ago. After all, that would be pretty easy to do in a lab. Personally, I've been practicing magick for almost thirty years and I've never seen anything of the sort that had no possible normal explanation.

My spells do work, though, so clearly it's not a requirement for success.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Pedro thank you for sharing!

Like Scott said, you don't need to experience out of the ordinary horror movie like phenomena in order to successfully use the system, get the spirit(s) to show up, and then to notice some time in the future that your ritual was successful. Just today I performed a ritual and I only got the pulsating sensation coming from the Table and the candle placed on the Sigillum starting to flicker - thing is the offering candle also flickers when I conjure elemental, planetary and zodiacal spirits onto the Table of Art, so that's no big deal.

In terms of feeling "something" I guess you need to continue performing whatever daily practice you perform, like for example the LBRP-MP combo of Ceremonial Magick 101 (lol) upon which you can add various exercises for scrying, various forms of meditation to help you hear the spirit, prayers and so on. As i understood from reading Scott's articles, Dee himself was instructed by the angels to perform sessions of daily prayer. Last but not least, I found that working with this system helped me improve my level of accuracy in hearing the spirits, as I constantly quieted by mind in order to pick up any other voices. When I hear them, I usually sense a nail or screw entering the top of my skull, and the voice comes from that area - it doesn't hurt, I only feel pressure and some times tingling.

Pedro said...

There's something that I didn't understand even after reading your book. In my case, I called the four kings because I had four wishes so I thought it'd be better to give one task for each one of them. All conjurations in your book are intended to call all the angels from a specific area, for example, the angels of medicine: east [angel 1], [angel 2], [angel 3], [angel 4] and the same for south, west and north, a total of 16 angels. Is it really necessary to call all of them? If I want to cure some disease should I ask all of the 16 angels?

Scott Stenwick said...

Yes, that is how I do it. There are some cases where you would call a subset of them. For example, if you were trying to cure something like mental illness, you might want to conjure just the ones associated with water and/or air. The advantage of calling all of them is that you don't need to worry about trying to figure out the exact nature of the illness. If all four elements are present, the right angels should be there to get it done.

In my experience, I haven't had a lot of success with conjuring a group of spirits and then trying to give a particular charge to each one of them like that. With the Kings, I conjure all four for a particular purpose and give a single charge. If that's not clear in the book, I probably should clarify it in Book 3. I'm not sure why it works that way, I have determined experimentally that you seem to get the best results probability-wise with a single charge.

That's not to say your ritual won't work. Your experience might be different than mine. If it doesn't work for you, though, I would suggest trying your operation with single charges instead of four different ones. For me, anyway, that seems to work a lot better.