Enochian Magick Forum

A number of readers have asked me to create some sort of forum where they could ask questions and discuss various aspects of Heptarchial magick as outlined in Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy. So here it is.

If you're reading the book and have questions about the rituals or other content feel free to add a comment. I'll check the page on a regular basis and hopefully be able to answer any questions to your satisfaction.

On June 12th of 2013 I appeared on the online radio program Deeper Down the Rabbit Hole and discussed Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy. You can download and listen to the podcast of my appearance here.


My second book, Mastering the Great Table, is now available. So I've renamed this forum page from "Heptarchia Mystica" to "Enochian Magick." Consider it a space in which you can ask questions about the Great Table as well as the Heptarchia. Mastering the Great Table is now also available in Kindle and ebook editions.

On October 12th of 2014 I appeared on Pagans Tonight Radio with Pam Kelly, discussing Enochian and grimoire magick. You can listen to the archive of my appearance here. This page is the forum I mentioned on the show, where you can ask questions about my books and Enochian magick in general.

338 comments:

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Scott Stenwick said...

Assuming the spirit Dee called was Befafes, it would have been on a Tuesday. Not sure if that helps much, but it might narrow down the possibilities.

Dacia Pacea said...

For some reason your answer doesn't show up here, although it shows up in the recent comments section O.o :)

Dacia Pacea said...

Oh, it popped up right after i sent the last message HAHA!

Scott Stenwick said...

The recent comments thing is kind of a quirky hack that does not always work right. For some reason, blogger doesn't have a decent "recent comments" gadget and you have to build your own using RSS. It's not an ideal solution, but so far it's the only thing I've found that works. Anyway, you also need to refresh your page sometimes.

Dacia Pacea said...

No, it's my fault. It seems that there's too many comments on the page and the blog added and extra page and a "Newer>Newest>>" button at the bottom, which I didn't see LOL.

As for Dee casting the spell, he had only two Tuesdays in which to do so, and I believe he did it right after Drake disobeyed orders and went to plunder a ship that wrecked on the coast.

I believe I heard someone in the audience of your Enochian presentation saying that Dee used a piece of wood from a wreckage of the Armada as a link for the spell. I couldn't hear the voice of that woman clearly, but if it's true what she says, then Drake must have disobeyed orders because he had orders from higher up to fetch some Spanish wood :)

In that case, i guess the spell was cast after the first or second battle. There were 4 ship battles, instead of 3. My mistake. I still have to figure out the precise Tuesday in which Dee allegedly did the ritual, due to the differences between the Julian and Gregorian calendars.

In any case, the results were awesome! Not only did the angel help the English won, but he also created confusion for the Spanish commander along the way.

Dacia Pacea said...

I'm not asking you the following in order to set up a debate between you and Aaron Leitch or anyone else, but only because I'm interested in your opinion on the subject.

Aaron Leitch recently commented on FB that the angels of this system are at the same level with the Chaioth Ha Quadesh. I'm not sure if he meant these angels are part of that order, or if they are of another order who is at the same level, the latter being unlikely in my opinion.

On the other hand Frater B seems to view them as being the fallen angels from the bible. At least that's what I understood from reading some of his articles many moons ago.

What's your view regarding the place of these angels in the overall celestial hierarchy?

Scott Stenwick said...

I will tell you what I think, but understand that nobody knows for sure. I do not believe that the Enochian entities are "fallen angels" with the possible exception of the cacodemons, and even then, they just seem to represent a chthonic aspect of the system and are probably not "fallen" in any meaningful sense.

I do believe that the angels of the system - that is, excluding the cacodemons - are on par with the traditional Qabalistic orders of angels, but I don't think that they land all on one level. Angels like the Kings would correspond to the higher orders, and other classes like the angels of the Great Table subquadrants would correspond to angels further down the Tree.

I do agree with Leitch's contention that the non-cacodemon Enochian entities are basically angels like Raphael, Michael, and so forth - Dee is basically told as much during the spirit diary conversations. I do not believe that they belong to some totally different class of entities. I just think they span the equivalent of the entire Tree of Life rather than occupying a single level of it.

Dacia Pacea said...

Interesting. I was thinking of something similar to what you're saying. Thank you1

Dallan said...

HELLO!
Thank you for all your efforts to clarify Enochian magic in a clear, easy-to-understand way!
I would like to ask if I may, if we can practice Enochian magic in our bedroom,
I want to practice Enochian magic and I'm studying a lot, but I have no other place besides my bedroom, the other places in the house I have no privacy so I would not have how to evoke an Angel from Mystic Heptarchia in my room,
Then would you like to know if you can do the Enochian ritual in the bedroom, or if you have any problems with that?

Scott Stenwick said...

You can improvise a lot. My first Holy Table was made from a piece of plywood about a foot square, which will easily fit just about anywhere. You can also print out a miniature Sigillum to put in the center and so forth. You will also want a ring, but that likewise is quite small.

Something like that doesn't match the formal Dee requirements, but it should still work. As far as working magick in your bedroom, I do that with my daily practices all the time. It shouldn't be any different working with the Heptarchial angels.

Dallan said...


thanks for the answer,
But if I practice in my bedroom can something go wrong?
Have trouble sleeping or spirits wandering in the bedroom?
I want to use your method so I ask the questions, I apologize for the inconvenience

Scott Stenwick said...

I highly doubt it. The angels told Dee that nothing would pass through the Sigillum, so as long as you have that you should be fine from a spiritual perspective. Spirits probably pass through your bedroom all the time, you just don't notice it.

Dallan said...


I thought that the energetic vibration left by the angel could attract some kind of astral larva or disturbing spirit,
Most practitioners of the Enochian magic do some kind of phenomenon, whether it is listening to the angels, or the presence is felt very strongly,
To this day I had no problem calling the archangels, angels and demons in my bedroom, but as Enochian has a reputation for being a system of "strong effects" I was in doubt as to what it would be.
Thank you for your patience and attention!

Scott Stenwick said...

In my experience the whole idea of astral larva is mostly superstition. When you start practicing magick, you do start to notice spiritual presences more strongly, but it's not because you're suddenly attracting those spirits. It's because you start noticing the spirits that were around you the whole time.

The energetic vibration of the angel is contained by the Sigillum, so it shouldn't spread to the rest of the room. Even if it did, if anything it would chase less powerful spirits away. And the bottom line is that if it works, it works. If you haven't noticed any problems at this point, you probably aren't going to.

Dallan said...

Many thanks for the explanation and attention, now I feel more secure,
Do you have any advice for the first evocation? (The chosen angel was the king carmara)
I intend to conjure carmara to ask for help in the Enochian magic, I do not intend to make another request, can you give me some advice?

Dallan said...

I forgot to ask one last thing, I'm sorry, but is it necessary to do the preliminary work of 19 days? Could you talk about this preliminary work of 19 days or a link where you talk about that part?
sorry to bother

Scott Stenwick said...

No, it is not necessary. It does help you contact the angels more easily once you have done it, but that's the main advantage it confers. I was able to do tons of practical stuff without it that worked just fine. Also note that it's not clear that the 19 day operation has much effect on the Heptarchials - it is more properly associated with the entities of the Watchtowers and Aires. Dee received the instructions for it long after he received the Heptarchial material, and it is not mentioned in Dee's edition of the Heptarchia.

I don't have a post about it anywhere, but it's simple - just time-consuming. You spend the 19 days on prayers and then running through all the Angelic Keys and conjurations each day. At the end of that period, you should have established solid connections with the various classes of Enochian entities. I include the Heptarchials for completeness, but it isn't clear from the diaries that I necessarily should or that it makes much difference if I do.

Dallan said...

Very easy to understand, you explained very clearly and easy to understand, thank you, this is every day the wizard recites a call and meditates basically to increase the connection with the angels,
But I do not think DEE would have done this for what I've seen so far or did he do the same with the 19 days for the other parts of the system?
And about the first conspiracy of the heptarquia, I intend to conjure the king carmara, do you have any advice about the first Enochian work with heptarchia?
Some friends called angels just to say "" I want to work with you "" with another king, but I wonder if the first call may be so or if there is a request for the angel? Love for example
I still remember that a friend conjured up the BALIGON king of Venus in love, but no result was accomplished within a month, so I wonder if the angels of the heptarquia really can be functional for practical magic,
When working with archangels, for example, they are smoother and take longer and when they perform is somewhat softer,
Goetia's demons, for example, are quicker to perform desires and things happen more strongly, "can Enochian heptarchic angels make orders with more force than the demons of Goeth, for example?

Dallan said...


to complete,
The demons of the Goetia have not worked for me for a few months, before they worked very well and now many do not even attend the conjuration, I made several attempts and changes in the rituals and nothing has changed,
Can this affect Enochian magic?
I can not conjure the Enochian angels, for example?

Dacia Pacea said...

@Dallan yeah dude you can do the work in your room. You can even si it in a closet so long you keep it tidy :) As for the preparatory work, I found that what Scott recommends on keeping a daily magical practice is enough to keep you going even with enochian work.

@Scott I've seen a post by Aaron Leitch some time ago in which he said that he chanted something in Angelic one time to calm the local spirits. I asked him what it was an he said it was the First Call. I asked him if it can be used as something similar to an exorcism, to which he said not quite. Since then I've also used it whenever I was feeling weird and it hit the spot. More than that, I've taught someone else to recite the First Call in Angelic whenever they felt strange and it also helped them - they're not into magick and the occult, so you can say they're a "mugblood" :) Have you used this call in a similar fashion before, on its own? If so, have you experienced similar results? I think it works because the person chanting it assumes the role of the Almighty - Iadbalt - even briefly, and thus manifests their authority over the spirit world.

Scott Stenwick said...

@Dallan: As far as I know, it is very possible that Dee never did the 19 days. He records getting the instructions for it from the angels, but there's no record of him attempting it.

What I did when I first conjured Carmara is that I basically asked him to open my sphere of awareness to the powers and realms of the Heptarchial Kings and Princes. Basically, I would say that you should ask him to attune you to the system as a whole. When I conjure the Heptarchials for practical stuff they work at least as well as other spirits if not better, and I can't really say what went wrong with your friend's spell without a lot more information. As far as the feel of the energy, I would say it's like that of the traditional archangels.

I've never done a lot with The Goetia, so I can't really give you much feedback there as far as comparing and contrasting goes. The Goetia has nothing to do with Enochian magick, though, and there's no reason that anything the Lemegeton spirits do would affect your Enochian work.

@Dacia: That sounds about right. The First Key is a general invocation of and identification with Iad Balt (The God of Justice). Justice is related to balance and equilibrium, so I can see it calming chaotic spirits, or for that matter calming the mind in general. Also, some spirits just vacate the premises as quickly as they can when you start doing anything Enochian - so there's that.

Dallan said...

@DACIA thank you very much :)


@SCOTT

Thank you very much, I can not thank you for the wonderful and clear answers, I am very happy to be able to be answered by you Scott,
All the doubts I had about Enochian have been clarified, if I have any questions I can write in this forum?
In relation to goetia, what I mean is that if some demons of the goetia did not attend to the conjuration, if an enochian angel would not attend either, since both are forms of evocative magic (although different beings and systems) understands.
What led me to the Enochian system were the dreams I was having with this magic system, and whenever I entered some occult site the first thing that appeared was Enochian, then I had a dream where I used the Enochian ring, and People always appeared speaking of Enochian and I found a lot of coincidence and called my attention and now I feel safe and ready to practice Enochian,
In some forums or even facebook groups, some people say that it is easier to work with demons and others with angels,
Angels more easily serve some people
And demons easily meet other people, have you noticed that?
Do you have any explanation for this scott?

Dacia Pacea said...

@Dallan I didn't use Baligon for love, I used Bagenol. The issue was complicated and the "client" was desperate. I gave the spirit 1month to perform the task only because the client demanded that. And besides, I don't think the client took enough action in the mundane world for the spell to succeed. More than that, the target has some difficult aspects in their birth chart when it comes to relationships, so more planetary energies needed to be used for that task. But i didnt have the time, nor the mood to do it, with the client being so desperate :) It was a break up spell rather than a love spell.

I use Baligon for changing the weather with great success :D IO Sikander here btw haha.

@Scott thanks for the added info.

Dallan said...

Ah, and what is the correct version for the table?

Dacia Pacea said...

Oh and btw Scott, that thing with Bagenol and reducing the intensity of earthquakes is working marvelously so far :D

Scott Stenwick said...

@Dallan: I use this version of the Holy Table.

http://thumbs.imagekind.com/3922885_350/Holy-Table-of-Practice_art.jpg&v=1492522612

@Dacia: Thanks for the update. That's good to know.

Dallan said...

Hahaha knew he was known brother HA HAHAHAHAHAH
I'm taking last questions right here,
Scott, could you tell the ministers about the heptarchia? They are fallen angels? For what I was reading it seemed to me like this,
What do you think IO?


PS:o is a great friend and a brother of walk always willing to help and thanks to IO that I had the strength to move forward in the Enochian, Io is my inspiration

Dallan said...


@DACIA Sorry, for example, IO, I hope you do not feel unknown, do not want to expose you or offend brother, I got confused in the situation, forgive me,
But the Goetic spirits are very quick for love matters also then take a look at it
It is all ready to be enochian,
I was going to do with carmara today, but I want to Wednesday moon time,
I'm very anxious

Scott Stenwick said...

There is not much information about the Ministers in the Heptarchia or the Five Books of Mystery, which (among other things) contain the original diary notes for the Heptarchial sessions, so it's hard to say what Dee thought of them.

From my own experience I don't personally think there's anything "fallen" about them, I just think they're angels. That's what they seem like when I conjure them.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Dallan we're cool ;) This account was initially meant for another person, but I ended up using it because I don't want to make another one. Don't worry about the ministers. As Scott says, when you conjure the king, you also get the prince and the ministers; when you conjure the prince, you also get the ministers. So the king and/or prince are/is enough for a successful outcome ;)

My first enochian ritual was with Bynepor, because he is the king of the day in which I decided to start, by chance :) So all you have to do is to finish constructing your tools and then use them right away, imo. You'll definitely feel the power of the system ;)

Dallan said...

@acia @scott

Thanks for the reply scott :)

Hi how are you!!!
I was reviewing my studies and these doubts ended up, I want to be well prepared to practice understand,
And many texts on Enochian magic are confusing,
I intend to evoke carmara on Wednesday at a time of the moon
The ring will be of cardboard and the improvised table, when I can send photos.
On the ministers it seems that Aaron and Duquette wrote about each of them and found it curious, but I will not work on parts of the systems yet unknown or fatating material,
I will call the kings and princes and the ministers come with them so it will not be necessary to focus on the ministers

Dallan said...

@scott
Does the moon phase have any interference under the Enochian system?
I still have not found anything related to it ...., could you answer me?
And because on the edges of the sacred board some versions appear as if it were a letter "B" in the upper edge of the border and another version with something like an inverted V?
To what I read this only serves to mark the end of a border,
But what made me curious is some versions take as a B and others as a V, why this difference?

Scott Stenwick said...

Moon phase has nothing to do with it. Electional timing can have an effect, though.

https://ananael.blogspot.com/2016/06/simple-electional-timing.html

The V vs B is actually the same Angelic letter. But there are different Angelic fonts out there, and some of them exaggerate the shapes differently. As I draw it, the letter looks like a V with an extra loop on the upper right.

Dallan said...


I understood, thank you very much for the help,
I noticed this difference of V and B, but I read somewhere that they were just to separate the tips from the sacred table, like a + in the Solomonic circles for example,
What made me curious is the fact that there are many "strange" sources about Enochian, now that I have understood the system I can identify this kind of thing, which has puzzled me.
Thank you for clarifying.
About the moon, in the Enochian system can I do a ritual to get a job, for example on a waning moon, and that will not interfere then?
About electoral time is like the moon mansions of the picatrix, and how would they influence the results of the desire or even the evocations?

SORRY,Hahaha and still on the ring, you said that your silver ring has lost use over the years at work Enoch, I, for example, will use the cardboard ring for not having the financial conditions at the time to buy a gold or Silver for example,
Would this card ring have a time to use and then have to be changed?

Dacia Pacea said...

I wouldn't have asked you this Scott, but i can't seem to find anything. Do you have a link in which the Calls are written in Angelic? If there's no such source, I can transliterate it myself, in which case id like to know if the transliteration is done letter for letter, and if the words are written from left to right. I think I remember reading something on your blog about this, but I can't find it right now.

Dallan said...

Thank you very much :)

Scott Stenwick said...

The transliteration is done letter for letter as long as you have a source that shows the original spelling. For example, my biggest complaint about Crowley's Liber Chanokh is that he doesn't show the original letters and instead spells out the Golden Dawn pronunciation - which is annoying.

In my opinion, you don't write the Keys from right to left. There's some disagreement on that, but the deal is that the language of Liber Loagaeth is supposed to be written right to left on the leaves and some extend that directive to Angelic proper - even though the Loagaeth language is pretty clearly different from what's in the Keys.

Here's the original of the Keys, from the British museum.

https://phergoph.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/48claves.pdf

The top line shows the spelling, which is transliterated letter for letter. The second line shows the pronunciation, and the third line shows the English.

Scott Stenwick said...

As far as I can tell, the only effect waning or waxing moon has on Enochian is that it can affect the chart victor. That's because one of the factors that goes into that calculation is pre-natal lunation, which is the sign of the last full or new moon. On a waxing moon, the pre-natal lunation is often in the same sign as the sun, which gives extra weight to the sun's current position in the zodiac. On a waning moon, the moon is often in the sign opposite the sun, which weights everything differently.

There's nothing about the lunar mansions in the diaries and I haven't come across any systems for using them with Enochian that seem particularly effective. Aside from the chart victor and final aspect, I haven't seen much effect from other lunar aspects.

Dacia Pacea said...

Thank you for your answer. As I've read in The Secret History of the World, some of the information given by the angels was written backwards (the angels specified it) in order to prevent some sort of apocalyptic outcome in the event the phrases were pronounced normally when they were given to Kelley and Kelley said them to Dee in order for the latter to write them down. I don't know if this was mention in the book to add a bit of drama, or that's how the author came across the information when he was doing his research.

I will use that document in order to transliterate the text.

As for the mansions, Frater B associates enochian spirits to them, but you know better than I that he has his own system.

Scott Stenwick said...

Actually, if you look at the conversations, it was Dee and Kelley who were worried about setting in motion magical forces while copying down the material. It is not clear that it had to do with anything apocalyptic - remember, that has more in common with the beliefs of modern evangelicals, whose tradition only goes back to the early 1800's. As I recall from Causaubon, it was after transmitting the Fourth Key that the angels finally got fed up with it and insisted on communicating the text forward.

Frater B's system is so idiosyncratic that I'm not sure those attributions are of much use to anyone who isn't working the rest of his Enochian system, which is quite unorthodox. He says he gets good results, so I'm in no position to question that. But his system contradicts even more of the original material than the Golden Dawn system does, which is one of the main reasons I don't use it myself.

Dacia Pacea said...

I take your word for it, as I'm mostly interested in whatever practical things are related to the system. I leave the interpretations to the scholars :) And who knows where that author found his sources? I really don't care :) I've followed the ritual steps you posted on the blog and so far I'm quite happy with the results :D

@Dallan google "Frater Barrabbas blog" (link in Scott's blog) and I think you'll find an article on the mansions where he also includes the specific "enochian" spirit he assigns to each mansion.

But as Scott says, Frater B has a totally different way of working with this system.

Dallan said...


Thanks for Scott's response, and thank Dacia for the wonderful questions, it's helping me a lot to understand the Enochian system :)

About the lunar mansions, my thoughts were, for example:
Calling King Baligon to get someone's love would be stronger if I did in mansion 26 that is linked to love and friendship, what do you think about it?
Does it make any sense or the Enochian angels, as the Baligon, for example, makes the request regardless of the lunar mansion in that case?
(My last study parallel to the Enochian was the lunar mansion for these ideas to bump into my mind)

In the enochian Facebook groups and also in the wizzard forums I read some people commenting that the Enochian angels are sub lunar spirits, I would like to know their thoughts on this because I still have no opinion on this.
Thanks for listening.

Scott Stenwick said...

It is possible that there could be some effect from working in a particular mansion. I just have never paid much attention to it and don't have the data to say one way or the other.

I do not think it is correct to say that "the Enochian angels" are sublunar spirits. The Heptarchials obviously aren't, as they're attributed to the Moon and the other planets. The governors of the Parts aren't, because they're zodiacal. Planetary and zodiacal entities are "higher up" than the Moon in the traditional hierarchy.

However, I can see where you could make that case with entities like, say, the subquadrant angels on the Great Table. Those angels are elemental, so lower on the hierarchy than the Moon.

Dallan said...


Thank you brother, I'll search the blog,
What I thought was a way to potentiate the Enochian rituals, but I do not have any solid grounds that the moon mansions could influence and how they could influence, I just think that if that were possible then we could potentiate the effect of Enochian magic, As in the example of love I gave in the previous message,
I would like you and Scott to comment on the Enochians being "Sub-Lunar" spirits. "
I am curious about this theory because I have not found anything about it, what is the basis of this theory?

Dallan said...

Thanks for the scott reply, very interesting, I will look fondly about it as mansions, although I have studied picatrix and the mansions, I have not yet practiced for having dedicated myself to the enochian material in the last days
(Which was full time and many instruments such as the sacred table were made by hand and took me longer)
A magician has written a text saying that all Enochian angels are actually "elementary spirits" and it seems that he follows another Crowley line, which leads me to believe that by the different "paths" that Enochian magic has taken, the Practitioners jump to conclusions about the system because I realize that people with more "different" comments are bound to other concepts of magic and even religious, in which case the magician was a practitioner of umbanda (Afro descendant religion in Brazil)
And perhaps mix your religious vision with the vision for the Enochian system for example,
And in relation to the sub-lunar ones, I believe they are non-practitioners, the same ones who put terror "on the Enochian system, and only speculate about what it would be to try to somehow stand out in the groups,
But I would like to know what basis people use to say that the Enochian angels are "sub-lunar" spirits would like to hear from you if possible.

Ps

*** for those who might read this comment in the future *****

I do not want to assault anyone with this comment, I'm just giving as an example so that I can understand "

Dacia Pacea said...

@Dallan whenever I cast a spell I always check the mansion the Moon happens to be in, because I figure it adds to the timing, since the lunar realm is closest to ours. So for example, if I can wait fora few days, I won't cast a love spell when Luna is in Sagittarius, if I remember correctly. This applies for Enochian also, but not always, because I figure since the source says nothing, don't bother to over think it - ie The Arbatel.

Oh and I would recommend you stop searching on forums for stuff on Enochian. Most users there are ignorant when it comes to this system. Some of them think they know everything, when in fact they don't know shit ;)

Scott Stenwick said...

I think the basis for it is that people are just looking at the four Watchtowers - which *are* elemental - and classifying the entire system according to that. Because that's what most of the discussion out there is about. Most people don't do much with the Heptarchia, which is clearly planetary, and they don't understand how the zodiacal angels work with the Parts of the Earth.

Whenever anybody is going on about "Enochian Tablets," all they're talking about is the Watchtowers. It's like in some peoples' minds that's the totality of the system. Even now, years after I published it, Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy is still the only book out there dedicated to working with the Heptarchia Mystica. It's mentioned in other Enochian books, but more as a lead-up to the Watchtowers than a powerful system in its own right.

Dacia Pacea said...

Indeed. And alot of people only know about the truncated GD-Crowley version of the system...

Dallan said...

@dacia On the forums, I have not been looking for the forums for quite some time, I barely see them, because I realized that there were many ignorant people even and they do not know about various magic systems and think they know everything, so I stopped searching in forums and Of groups, I only participate even in your group where I have you as an occult contact and where I am in constant contact,
Even in my country I gave up these groups because they were always people who think they know everything,
In relation to Enochian magic I have discarded many sources and come to look at the blog of scott and of course with you too, I am not looking for other sources because there is a lot of confusing, a magician from my country for example in his book "" besides passing a Method for almost impossible Enochian to be made can not explain the system and makes it more confusing and difficult,
(I think it did this for people to give up practicing alone and resort to their courses)
Hahah but I had read about this issue of the angels being actually sub lunar in various texts that I read in the past and this has always intrigued me, and now having the opportunity to ask I am doing to better understand the bases on this,
And I also realize that many people who practice Enochian want to keep what they know for themselves to keep other people from this system by putting fear and nonsense, as happens in the Goetia many times the same thing,
I'll be more attentive to the lunar mansions in every ritual you do,
I never took the lunar mansions into account during evocations, now I will work more with them :)
thanks for the tip :)
Is a brother dear to me!
@scott thank you for sharing your vision, I am very happy and honored to be answered by you and thank you for sharing such wisdom and sharing your knowledge,
I am reading the text about his ritual with carmara, dacia shared and I am reading it here, I was going to do the evocation with carmara Monday but I had unforeseen, and I would do today, but reading your text I felt motivated to do on Friday Moon hour
thanks for everything :)

Dallan said...


I finished the ritual a little now,
I did not have many sensations in this ritual, although I must have been stronger on Monday, and I also forgot to have the call on my tongue in my hands, I recited only the call in Enochian and the call to the chambermaid,
I could feel in some moments a slight pressure on my ear or a small heat, but nothing strong or aggressive, almost imperceptible,
I thought I had gone wrong because of the call I forgot, but I made the request and at the end of the ritual I felt my light energy, at that moment I feel my body light as if I were to fly at any moment, that's it, I enjoyed the ritual.

ps:
This ritual was done today, friday (jupiter hour by chance) please, I would like to hear your opinion scott

Dallan said...


Excuse,
The ritual went to the king carmara

Scott Stenwick said...

Dee does group Carmara under Monday in the Heptarchia, so it may be that a stronger manifestation on Monday should be expected. I have found that you can conjure him any time, but he may have a preference. At the conference, I was scheduled for Friday morning and had no choice in the matter. I was pleased, though, that the Moon hour fell then because of the Monday association.

It is also possible that the ritual would have felt more intense during a Moon hour. I haven't done this exact ritual enough times to say for sure. And as a point, the use of the Angelic Calls is not required for the Heptarchia. That's one of my own additions, but I have found over the years that it works quite well. So don't worry about missing them during the procedure.

Ideally, the effect of this ritual should increase your ability to work Heptarchial magick in general. That's the real test - to see if you can now conjure one of the Heptarchials and get better results than before.

Dallan said...

Thanks for the kind opinion scott,
I followed his ritual model, with some changes to my tongue, I thought that because Venus was the day of Venus and the king of Venus was one of the forms of carmara, I would have no problem with the time to call him, and I wanted to To do the ritual very much, I was anxious for this and I had unforeseen events that prevented me from doing it on Monday, I spent the whole morning writing the ritual and so I could not do it at the time of the moon as I wanted it too.
I will return to call carmara on Monday, you recommend that I make the same request to him?
The insignias got bigger than I expected and some of them ended up touching the letters on the edges of the table. Is that a problem?
My table was improvised, on a high bench I put what was to be the table before, and on it I placed the holy table drawn and configured, the sigmo of aemethy in the middle of the table as usual, and 4 smaller sigils at the ends of the first Table and other 4 sigils on the feet of the bench, as the sigil is to contain energy so I thought it should be so, what's your opinion?
I am still feeling very light energy, as if I were flying, I did not feel any negative or heavy energy, I felt a light energy and the feeling of floating that is still in me .. is this common in Enochian work?

Scott Stenwick said...

You should be able to call Carmara at any time, day and hour notwithstanding. I thought the Moon hour was auspicious, but that was as far as it went.

You can make the same request multiple times. That shouldn't be a problem. As far as the table goes, you have a lot of leeway with that. It shouldn't be an issue that your insignias are large, or that the setup was improvised. It should still work for you.

The feeling you get afterwards depends on the angel you call, but I can see it being quite appropriate for Carmara. As I said, the real test of whether or not the ritual worked is to try out some other practical Heptarchial work with easily measurable results and see if it works better for you.

Dacia Pacea said...

Yeah, like call upon Baligon and ask him to raise or lower the temperature for a certain amount of time - it seems to be working for me every time, despite the harsh weather predictions :)

Dallan said...


Thank you scott !!!
I will call tonight again with the same request, and this week I intend to make another call to ask for a job

Dallan said...


@ Dacia, thanks for the advice :)
@scott, the king and the prince are assigned to different planets, so should I conjure the prince on the day assigned to the king but at the time of the planet assigned to the prince?
for example:
The king of Monday Blumaza is assigned the moon, but his prince bralges is attributed to saturn
So you mean if I want to call BRALGES I should call on Monday at the time of Saturn, is that it?
Sorry I was a little confused about this,
But what about the hagonel I should call on Monday at what time?

Scott Stenwick said...

Right, that is how I do it for best results. According to the Heptarchia the King and Prince do rule the whole day, but if you are going to bring the hours into it that arrangement makes the most sense.

Carmara and Hagonel can be called any time. But Dee groups them with the King and Prince for Monday, so if you want to take that into account, I think it makes the most sense to assume that the hour attributions should match the Monday King and Prince because that's how the Heptarchial wheel is set up.

Also remember that when you conjure the King, you get the Prince automatically. So you can go ahead and do the conjuration for Carmara (or any other King) at the appropriate time, and still deliver a charge to the Prince.

Dacia Pacea said...

Yup. At first I conjured the King and delivered the charge to the Prince directly. After several rituals done this way, I conjured the King and when he arrived, I asked him to bring forth the Prince. I then conversed with the Prince directly and worked out the best way I would deliver the charge depending on the situation I had previously laid out to him. You'll soon find your own way to work with them Dallan. I have no doubt about it ;)

Dallan said...


Now I understood better, thank you very much,
I want to make a conjuration for hagonel to ask to increase my clairvoyance, can I conjure only hagonel or should I conjure carmara next to him?

Dallan said...

Last monday I did the conjuration to the king carmara, after the ritual I felt light again, (although in the ritual there were not many sensations. But I am not in search of the sensations or "effects", I am the type that looks for the results)
So I decided to call hagonel the afternoon, but this had not been planned previously, I read that hagonel could help with clairvoyance so I decided to try in order to get a more tangible result,
So during this evocation I did not really feel anything, I asked for premonitory dreams but without success,
Should I call the carara king and then give the order to hagonel through carmara? So the effects would be better?

I would like your opinion
May seem silly, but with the non-reporting of the request to hagonel for clairvoyance and vision through dreams I got a little discouraged, it made me frustrated understand,
This is an outburst,
I wanted to hear from you about this ritual a hagonel
For clairvoyance was it right to choose hagonel or should have chosen another?

PS:
Yesterday also had the eclipse, so could it have influenced negatively?

Scott Stenwick said...

First off, casting on a eclipse is generally considered ill-advised. It didn't occur to me that the Monday you were talking about was also the big eclipse day, and I would have mentioned it if I made the connection. Eclipses are not good times to do magick, period. So that could be the whole problem right there.

I have found that whether you give the instruction to the King to give to the Prince or give it to the Prince directly doesn't make a lot of difference. Clairvoyance is a power specifically attributed to the Moon, and Hagonel is the general Prince who rules over the Heptarchial system. Dee does group Carmara and Hagonel under Monday, so there's a lunar association there - but you might do better with Bralges, who is the actual Prince attributed to Monday. That's because Hagonel's powers are more general.

The condition of the Moon might also have come into play. When a planet gets too close to the Sun it is referred to as "combust" in astrology - effectively, its energy is "burned up" by the heat of the Sun. And, of course, even you didn't see a total eclipse where you're located, the Moon was still basically right on top of the Sun yesterday. That might be a factor too, since you were trying to call upon specifically Lunar energies.

Dallan said...

Thank you Scott,
I actually thought about this about the eclipse and in the studies of the lunar mansions I read about the lunar combustion,
But I thought that when you said that the moon did not influence the Enochian magic, then I thought that even the eclipse would have no influence, I was a fool and I misunderstood, even more working with something related to the moon as the ability of Clairvoyance for example, I have never done rituals in eclipses by understanding that the energies are nullified during the eclipse,
So my conjuration yesterday was weak, "so I will not take that conjuration into account and do a conjuring up with Bralges next Monday, is there another better angel for clairvoyance skills? Could you tell me about?
And also a curiosity, what is the average time for a heptarquial angel to make a wish on the manifest plane?

And hagonel can help in what as prince general? I came to this doubt, you usually work hagonel for what type of request?

Dacia Pacea said...

Yeah the Moon combust or worse, cazimi, could be a big issue when calling upon lunar energies.

But! Dallan I think you're getting frustrated way too soon. Things like clairvoyance take time to achieve, even with the help of spirits - ie go to the group and search for my ritual accounts with Chasmodai. It's not like the spirit snaps its fingers and presto, you are clairvoyant. Your mind needs to adapt in order to receive visions and such, and that may take a certain amount of time, depending on how you are - Scott can tell you better that some people are more naturally skilled in things like clairvoyance and premonitions than others, because that's the way they were born. So be patient ;)

@Scott perhaps this should be discussed in your article on the Moon ritual, but since it was mentioned here, here I go :)

Some systems actually recommend doing magick during an eclipse, because there's a void being created and the magick will fill that void - I think you've heard of such things. Jason Miller had a post yesterday in which he said he was preparing for a ritual during the eclipse. I think witches were also doing stuff during that time... Over on the Solomonic group however, Nick Farrell stated (and I agree) that if one were to do magick during an eclipse, it should be something that would counterbalance the effects of the spirits running wild during that time, or something like that.

Scott Stenwick said...

What you asked was whether the phase of the Moon had an effect - in other words, waxing, waning, crescent, etc. I also believe I mentioned in the same post that simple electional timing and chart victors - which have to do with the astrological position of the Moon - can. Chart Victor is affected by pre-natal lunation (the position of the previous full or new moon), and simple electional timing is based on the Moon's final aspects moving through the signs. So there's an effect, it just isn't based on "phase."

Also, you're talking about specifically lunar energy. The condition of the Moon might not have a strong effect on Enochian angels, but it does have an effect on the Moon itself if those are the energies you are trying to work with.

The only system I've heard of that talks about anything besides negative effects during an eclipse is Buddhism, which is probably where Jason is coming from. Buddhism says that an eclipse magnifies whatever you bring to your ritual - positive or negative. So my guess is Jason might be coming from there - approach the eclipse from a perspective of meditative emptiness, and wind up with a void into which energies can be conjured. But that stance runs against the teachings in both the Western systems and Eastern systems Hinduism - those maintain that magick during an eclipse is just something you shouldn't do.

From a practical testing standpoint, I have tried doing magick on an eclipse a couple of times - and I never saw measurable good results that I could connect back to the ritual. So there's that.

I would go ahead and try Bralges, and possibly Blumaza if that doesn't work from the Heptarchials. You can also do something like this if you're open to working with angels other than the Heptarchials.

http://ananael.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-planetary-work-moon.html

As far timelines go, if you don't give the angel a timeframe it can be all over the map. You should always say something like "bring me a clairvoyant dream within the next two weeks" or something to that effect - that way the angel knows when you are expecting something to happen, and at the end of that period you can say for sure whether the operation was a success or a failure.

Dacia Pacea said...

I see your point Scott.

And yes, giving the spirit a time frame is best. I would also work on remembering the dreams, since it would be in vain if you had a clairvoyant dream which you'd totally forget upon waking up.

Dallan said...

@scott@dacia
thank you very much :)
I'm going to try with the other angels, yes, I was reading your articles on the zodiacal angels too, and I intend to conjure them
Thank you scott, thank you very much indeed !!!

Dacia Pacea said...

@Scott - about offerings to these spirits. Considering the fact that the princes are attributed to different planetary hours than the kings, do you offer them things corresponding to their planetary hour, or to their planetary day? So far I've been giving the princes offerings corresponding to the day, and I'm quite happy with the results, but I'm curious how you do it.

Some of them, like Brorges, have told me to give them stuff totally different than their usual planetary correspondences, and I've even got to "strike a deal" with them on other things, if I couldn't find the specific thing they wanted - ie a gray candle.

Scott Stenwick said...

Day should always be primary, so you are doing it right.

Spirits also have their own minds, so if one wants something else from you and tells you, you should go with that too. The planetary correspondences are guidelines, and are no substitute for experience and interaction.

Steven Burnside said...

Would it be too much trouble to ask you to translate a couple of English phrases into Enochian runes for me? I'd be forever grateful.

Scott Stenwick said...

I would be willing to give it a shot, with the caveat that Angelic has a very limited known vocabulary. Some words translate easily, while others are much more difficult if not impossible with the dictionaries we have. What are you wanting translated?

Steven Burnside said...

"Memory of Death"

"I made a Law"

"Those called shall be put into the motion of death and the time of their death is now under my power/control"

I promise this is strictly educational and I have no ill intent. Thank you again.

Scott Stenwick said...

Memory of death would be PAPNOR TELOCH and I made a law is just OHORELA. You longer phrase would be something like this:

PRIAZ UMD TRIAN AALA ASPT ZNA TELOCH OD COCASB TELOCH PAR I OROCH NANAEEL

[Those] [to be called] [shall be] [put] [in front of] [motion] [of death] [and] [time] [of death] [of them] [is] [under] [my power]

That's about the best I can do, since for a couple of the words no direct translation is possible.

And just as a point, I neither know nor care what your motivations are. It's not like you can cast a curse just by speaking an Angelic phrase anyway. The angels understand English just fine when you conjure them, though it's nice to be able to write your intent out in Angelic if you're making a talisman or something.

Dallan said...

Thanks for the advice @dacia and for your attention too brother!
I looked at his ritual with chasmodai and found it really interesting and I'm thinking of doing yes,
Today monday of this week
I did the ritual with King BLUMAZA and Prince BRALGES,
With all certainty was the stronger ritual than on the day of the eclipse,
I had a feeling of not feeling gravity again, but quite intensely
I asked for clairvoyance and improve my evocatory magic as well.
Was this, my next works with heptarchya will be something more "material" ""
To see how it will work in the manifest plan.
When I have news I will be reporting my enochian walk with you,
Thanks for all your help one more time, and scott for all the attention and help and for wasting part of your time clarifying doubts what makes you a much more special magician!


PS:About the ritual of aminitiziel what I realized were that the dreams increased,
I always remembered my dreams all my life

Steven Burnside said...

Thank you for your reply. I'm assuming that after translating the words as you did, you just swap out each letter with the appropriate Enochian rune?

Scott Stenwick said...

Right. When I type out the Angelic words in all-caps like that it means you can do a letter-to-letter transcription.

Also, don't let anybody tell you that you should write the letters from right to left. That may be true of the language found in Liber Loagaeth, but even though it uses the same script it's not the same as the Angelic of the Keys (where these words all come from). You write these left to right, just as they appear above.

Steven Burnside said...

Thank you! One more question... are you able to shed some light on this? It seems a little too simple to be legitimate as I've heard such magick working requires a lot of preparatory work. It involves writing the runes I asked you about on the cover of a notebook in blood and enchanting it under a full moon. The result is a magick notebook that will supposedly kill whoever s name is written within. There's more info on the ritual in the link. The site that this originated in is long gone.
http://www.symbianize.com/archive/index.php/t-154271.html

Scott Stenwick said...

Okay, I read it. There is no way that is a legitimate spell. People with high levels of magical talent can sometimes make ad hoc stuff like that work (like in chaos magick, for example), but the whole thing is running off their own power and most people don't have anywhere near enough. Also, all the nonsense about the book "rotting your aura" is just silly. Nothing does that.

For a death spell, you actually want to conjure a spirit. It's better and cleaner that way. In the Heptarchial system, you would conjure Bralges, the Prince for Saturday (who "opens the gate of death"). The only other thing you need is a magical link to the target, which you put in the center of the Sigillum. The full ritual template is in Mastering the Mystical Heptarchy, for added convenience.

That's way simpler than trying to make a "magick notebook." No weird aura-rotting side effects, either.

Spencer Fitzwilliams said...

Very interesting. I always wondered if that website years back was legit. However, it sounded far too simple. I think I'm going to give your book a read at some point. Thank you for all your help.

Dallan said...


Gradually I feel my astral vision improving, which I think results from the ritual with bralges / blumaza
but after the rituals I feel a kind of floating sensation or even the impression of not feeling the gravity, feel my body lighter, although I am totally conscious, but I would like to know if these sensations are common and if they also happen to you , or if I may be doing something wrong?
ps: I always do the banishment after the ritual, minor ritual of the pentagram, I give leave to leave, and now I began to include the field of the operant of scott,
I do not particularly see any problem, just wanted to know if it's common? What's your opinion, Scott?

Scott Stenwick said...

I know that I experience similar thing sometimes when working with the Enochian entities, so I don't think your experience is particularly unusual. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

If they aren't bothering you, I wouldn't worry about it. It's sort of a side effect of your consciousness being shifted into a "register" where the angels can work and communicate with you better. At least, that's what it's been in my experience.

Dallan said...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH SCOTT :)

Dallan said...

Scott, I am writing notes on the enochian powers of the heptarchya at that time, I very much wanted to hear from you, your comments on the powers of kings and princes to heptarchya for practical purposes,
for example, even though the angels do assignment in liber 777 and their powers are still based on the corresponding planets, I think the powers in practice may be a bit different and I thought of asking you why you have a lot of experience in the system and would greatly increase in my Enochian work to know your comments on their powers, I am making a list with the powers but I would like to know how those powers were for you in practice understand,
for example:
In my experiences the archangel

Sachiel is good to help open the way to professional opportunities

The Olympic spirit Bethor is already better to bring opportunities to earn money as well as employment

The Goetic bune is best to bring cash fast

so I would like to know and the heptarchya angels in that context how they would work, whether to get a job, to get a love, and money what would be the best in practice?
I hope you understand my question and I still hope that I am not being a bother with this question, each wizard works in a different way I know, but I prefer to have as much information as I can about entities, angels etc to know what to ask and for which to ask, I know that many who will read this post will find it ridiculous or debauch of my ability, but I can only work magically better with an entity if I know better
about her powers

Dacia Pacea said...

With all these hurricane reports popping up on my news feed, I wonder if Babalel or Befafes could be used in order to reduce the intensity of the hurricanes at least to a tropical storm category. If so, which of them would you consider more suited for the job? I've only used Befafes once to bring rain last year, but it was so dry and got when I did it, that the results were only an increase in moisture. Besides casting too late, I thought back then that Babalel could've been more suited to control precipitations. I also think Baligon would be great for casting against hurricanes, but only for the air part, because they're fed by humidity...

Scott Stenwick said...

You can think of them as approximately on par with planetary angels such as Sachiel, in addition to their other powers, and have the same areas of influence, like so:

Sunday - Acquiring wealth.
Monday - Clairvoyance, divination.
Tuesday - Wrath and vengeance.
Wednesday - Healing, science, language, knowledge.
Thursday - Political and other ascendancy (which is good for job spells).
Friday - Love, sex, relationships.
Saturday - Malediction and death.

Note that the King and Prince both go with the day, even though the Princes have a different secondary planetary attribution associated with them. Also, Kings behave more like intelligences and Princes behave more like spirits. Intelligences = knowledge and enlightenment, Spirits = practical action.

That being said, when you conjure the King you automatically get the Prince as well. So you can do the King conjuration and address charges to both.

Scott Stenwick said...

Befafes could be called on to lower the temperature of the ocean, which is what fuels the power of hurricanes. Once you addressed that, you could move on to aerial operations to bring down the winds and bring up the barometric pressure at the eye. Or something like that.

Dallan said...


Thanks for all patience Scott, thank you very much !!!
So even though the princes have a secondary planetary assignment this prince will work on the influences of that day is that even scott?
for example:
Borgono is the prince for Sunday, but his planetary association is for Venus,
so if I call Borgono on Sunday he can act in solar areas like: acquiring wealth for example? it is?

Dacia Pacea said...

Aha, so Babalel being good for mystical stuff he is in charge of the metaphysical waters then. That's good to know.

@Dallan so you bought Scott's book on the Great Table? Cool! Let me know how it goes ;)

Scott Stenwick said...

@Dallan: Yes, that is correct.

Dallan said...

Thank you Scott, as always helping a lot
@Dacia okay :)

Steven Burnside said...

So I was reading your book and poking around on a few forums. Lately, I started thinking back to my post on August 31 about the magick notebook and a new question came to mind. As you said, the ritual I linked you to was definitely a hoax. But my new question to you is this: With the conjuring of Bralges, following the ritual template and all, would it be possible for him/her to infuse the notebook with such abilities. Somebody on a forum was claiming that the consecration of an object is possible. If this is the case, what would the process of doing this be once I am in the presence of the angel. Do I just state my wishes or is there more to it than that? Thank you again, Scott.

Scott Stenwick said...

The answer there is yes, up to a point. Most spirits can empower objects to perform functions similar to the powers of their offices. There's some reduction in overall power just because some of the strength of the spell has to go into holding the magical field of the object together and so forth. So you wind up with about 80% of the probability shift you would get with a full ritual.

Basically, you would do something like this: first, your object should be prepared by marking it with Bralges seal. Then, you place the object on top of the Sigillum Dei Aemeth in place of a shewstone or other scrying device and conjure the spirit, in this case Bralges. Deliver your charge, and allow a little bit of time for the spirit to empower the object. Then do the license to depart and your regular closing procedure.

A couple of caveats - a notebook really doesn't make a very good talisman, especially if you are going to be handling it on a regular basis and using it for multiple operations. The one thing that tends to degrade talismans is repeated contact, and paper is not the most magically resilient of materials under those circumstances.

If I were going to make something out of paper for this, I would do something more like a paper talisman and then I would laminate it in some fashion so you can hold it but never come into direct contact with it. It will last longer if you do that. Then, I would empower it so that it casts your death curse on anyone you name while holding it within some time interval that you specify.

The object's power will also be divided up among the number of targets it currently is going after. So if you really want it to work, specify a time interval of something like a month and only use it on one target at a time. That gives you the best odds for success.

This isn't going to "rot your aura" or any nonsense like that, but death curses are hard to cast, especially with the probability reduction from using an object rather than a full ritual. Much of the time your target may get sick but won't actually die. Also, magical practitioners who keep up daily practices are very difficult to curse in this way. You probably will see no effect if you go after somebody like that.

The "death note" idea, like most things that come out of the anime world, was chosen not because it's a particularly good way to do magick but because it looks cool and dramatic in a story. From a technical standpoint, it's a lot more difficult and problematic than using a good old-fashioned talisman.

Dacia Pacea said...

"Much of the time your target may get sick but won't actually die."

It's probably not the best place to ask you this, the topic here being oriented towards Dee's system. But I'm interested to know how you view this proccess of the target getting sick by the hands of the spirit would take place.

I mean for a death spell I can see the spirit shifting probabilities for the target to suffer an accident and stuff like that. But even if they die from disease, how would you explain that? Does the spirit mess with their aura and "programs" it to get sick or something? I know that in energy healing the specialist cleanses the patient's aura of clots and various low energies because they are considered to be the cause of physical problems - which I consider to be true.

As for a talisman done with the help of Enochian angels - so only the seal of the king or prince would be necessary to be inscribed on it, if I am to need only that specific power? Not both, like on the talismans used to call on them.

Dacia Pacea said...

One more thing about the paper talisman - shouldn't it be charged first and laminated afterwards? I mean doesn't the plastic offer some resistance?

Scott Stenwick said...

Not necessarily. It seems to work either way. Plastic does not hold a magical charge, and it also does not insulate against a spell. I thought it might insulate too, until we tested it out and it seems to make no difference at all. The advantage of using it is that it allows you to work with the talisman without touching it directly, because you're touching the plastic. So it "insulates" against contact, but not against the magick itself.

Scott Stenwick said...

Oops, these are out of order. Regarding how spells in general achieve their objectives, what you basically are asking there is "how does magick work?" The most accurate thing to say is that we still don't know for sure. My magical model posts cover a lot of that ground, but there's still no definitive answer.

As I see it, it's all probability, whatever use that is. If a person is in poor health, they are at risk for health problems. If they engage in risky hobbies like skydiving or something, they're more at risk of an accident. Magick is going to take the path of least resistance - it's going to work towards the likeliest possible way that your goal can be accomplished.

For a talisman that calls on the specific power of the King or the Prince, that is correct. You only need the seal for the angel that will be doing the work. You still use the "day" talisman with both the King and Prince to call them when you do your ritual, though. You stand on the "day" talisman and your new talisman goes in the center of the Sigillum.

Dacia Pacea said...

It's good to know that about laminating paper talismans. I suspect I can also laminate them after the ritual charging.

I asked you about the getting sick part because I wondered what would happen if the target barely left their house. In that case, there would be less chances for the spirit to shift things one way or the other. That's why I mentioned the aura part.

One more thing about talismans charged by enochian spirits - is it necessary to project energy into them yourself? I suspect it's the same as with the ones charged by planetary spirits.

Thanks for the answers!

Scott Stenwick said...

The reality is that if your target is extremely healthy and takes very few risks, a curse like that likely isn't going to work. Magick can only push probabilities so far.

And yes, charging talismans works the same whether you are working with Enochian angels, planetary angels, zodiacal angels, or whatever.

Steven Burnside said...

So, I've decided to start investing into the creation of an Enochian temple. As you know, these things can get expensive. What I'm wondering is if I should expect lesser results in magick workings by using cost effective materials? For example, if I was to use wood for the Sigillum dei Aemeth, the lamen or the ensigns. Would even paper be acceptable? Thanks a lot as always.

Scott Stenwick said...

As I see it, you can always substitute. I started out with a little Holy Table maybe a foot across burned into a piece of plywood, and I was able to get in touch with the spirits. Your results will get better as your temple is more complete and more of your materials match, but if you're pretty close it seems like your results will be too.

You can use paper for the Sigillum - I still use tagboard Ensigns to this day - but let me recommend the method that I used to make my traveling setup. It is only slightly more expensive than paper, and works better in a couple key ways.

(1) Find a graphic of the Sigillum online and print it out. You want it to be about eight inches in diameter.

(2) Go to craft store and buy an eight inch wooden disk. The specifications do say nine inches, but eight inches is a much easier size to find. Use regular white glue to attach the paper sigillum to the top of the disk. Smooth it out really well and let it dry.

(3) Take a sharpie marker and draw the cross with AGLA on the bottom of the disk.

I used that as my sigillum when I presented on Heptarchial evocation at the National OTO Convention in August, and it worked great. When I came up with the idea I wasn't sure how it was going to turn out, but it's a very nice-looking piece. I think the wooden disk cost five or six bucks, and in my opinion it looks much better than flat paper would have.

Steven Burnside said...

That's good to know since I actually found a wood burned sigillum on etsy for about 35 dollars. It certainly looks more elegant than wax. I'm hoping he'll be able to do the four smaller ones as well. Thanks again!

Scott Stenwick said...

If they do not make smaller ones, you can use the same trick as I did with my large one. Just print out four copies of the top of the sigillum at 4 inches wide and glue them to four inch wooden disks. That's also a common size carried by most craft stores.

Steven Burnside said...

When creating the ring, is it the shape or the letters that are more important? Also, must the letters be raised or will a laser etching suffice? Thank you again.

Scott Stenwick said...

Etching is completely fine. They look kind of cool raised, but there is nothing in the diaries specifying it.

As for your second question, there is a lot of variation that I have seen in the exact shape of the ring. Some of them are more square and some are more rectangular. That doesn't seem to make much difference in the results. So I would say that the letters are more important. I even have seen rings that are round with the full design engraved, including the rectangular border, and those likewise seem to work fine.

Steven Burnside said...

That's good news. I wanted to have a quality ring engraved so it would last a lot longer. Thanks again!

Steven Burnside said...

So, I know this is primarily an Enochian forum, but are you experienced in other systems of magick. I ask this because I have been reading about Goetia and the 72 demons. Thanks as always.

Scott Stenwick said...

I am familiar with other forms of magick, but I have very little experience with the Lemegeton and the 72 Goetic demons. I've done two rituals total using that system, and was not impressed with the results of either.

Enochian and Goetic magick get lumped together all the time because a book called the Treatise on Angel Magic tried to combine them all the way back in 1700. But the two systems actually have practically nothing to do with each other.

Steven Burnside said...

What was unimpressive about your results with Goetic magick if I may ask? Were you able to actually get in contact with your chosen demon?

Scott Stenwick said...

I was able to contact the spirit, and even "saw" something without any special preparation - which is rare for me. But as far as practical intent went, I didn't get any effect either time. I've been able to accomplish similar intents easily with Enochian entities, both before and after my Goetic experiments. I know magicians who have gotten good results with that system, so it clearly works fine for some people. It just doesn't seem to be for me, for whatever reason.

Dallan said...

I would like to request a license to comment on Goetia taking advantage of this space,

I also realize that Goetia does not work for some people,
I got good results, but after a while the goetic demons failed considerably and some did not even come during the call,
I wonder if there is any explanation for this scott,
because from what I researched about it, many people have a similar problem:
some demons come and some do not come
and in some cases they do not come

when I called before they came and I had results but for some time they did not respond, I would like to know if there is one why this happens
appeared in a group a case where the person spent a lot of money to buy all the tools for Goetia and even then,
I made several modifications to the system to see if there was any change without success,
Could you comment on this scott?
and also the most impressive results came from the Enochian or Goetia magic? (It may seem a bit obvious this question, but I would like you to comment on it, please)

and in his vision in practical results, what was Goetia's biggest difference to Enochian magic in terms of results?

Scott Stenwick said...

I can comment on it, but you really should ask somebody who has spent a significant amount of time working with both systems. Enochian is much more effective for me. That being said, I don't know if that has something to do with me or something to do with the system.

One general thing I'll say is that spirits are like people - usually some of them will get along well with you and others won't. What you want to do is find a couple that you do get along with well and build up working relationships with them.

Dallan said...


thank you very much scott comment, i will think about this too!
thanks for the help

Scott Stenwick said...

Another thought I had that applies to magick in general. When you did your Goetic work, did you always give the demons a time limit to accomplish your objective? Remember that magical operations keep running until they hit a termination condition. If you don't give them a time limit, the only termination condition is success.

That's relevant because your magical power plus the spirit's magical power is limited - and it gets divided up among every operation that you are running concurrently. So at first, everything works fine, but as those ongoing operations accumulate the amount you can apply to every new one diminishes.

So you always say "accomplish this within one month" or whatever, so that once the month is up you get a termination condition whether or not your operation succeeded. That's something I worked out with the Enochians and Agrippa spirits, but it seems to me it could apply to Goetia as well and explain what you're describing.

Dallan said...


scott, thanks for the generosity in worrying !!! an experienced mage capable of trying to help others
and not being selfish or overbearing, you are a GREAT MASTER SCOTT if you can call me that.

Regarding goetia, I always set a time limit, worked with this system for a few years around 4 or 5 years, and stopped working without apparent explanation, I asked other magicians experienced in Goethya and they did not know the answer, or they simply ignored me.
The fact is that Goetia always worked for me and after an unexplained time stopped unexplained
I always worked with a time limit and always worked one spirit at a time, respectfully, and when I looked at the tarot I realized that there was no success,
and over time the desire was not realized,
I had very quick results with Goetia, the same day I had desired results for minor issues for example, but I always gave deadlines, a week, a month etc.
one of the "side effects" of working with Goethya are lucid dreams and I realize that these dreams have also stopped
I tried to work on yesod, middle pillar, tried Solomon's pentacles and nothing, I changed the system and method several times without success.

I stayed for months researching what might have happened and found no answers,
and I perceived by Goetia groups eg example or even forums
This happened to other people
some as I told you before, bought all the instruments and had no result,
others got in touch with a certain demon but could not with another
and for other people it just did not work
and this intrigued me enough, all that was in my power to try to discover the problem I researched and did
after that time I began to have dreams about Enochian magic, until then I did not intend to study Enochian magic but it was coincidences and dreams so strong that I decided to leave this research on goetia aside and I have no answer about what happened
Crowley said the demons of goetia are parts of the mind and I started to create a theory that partly true this, I believe they are real and parts of the mind
and I believe that if the part of the mind attached to the demon is affected then the contact will be blocked that was one the conclusions that I arrived but lack more study and base on this
another thing that came to mind is that some people have a more positive energy and some a more negative polarity.
(sorry the terms, it was the best I could)
and people with greater positive polarity would have ease with angels or celestial entities. "
and those with negative polarity "would have ease with devils and more telluric spirits
but these are theories that I created, I do not have a full base for it, so this is the first time I tell anyone about it
Thank you again Master Scott !!!

Scott Stenwick said...

Okay, then it would not be the time limit issue. That just sounded like a possibility based on how you described what happened. If you don't give time limits, any system of magick will eventually stop working well. It's just like when you have too many programs running on a computer and it makes the whole thing slow.

Most of what you're describing there is true with other classes of spirits as well. Buying a bunch of equipment doesn't mean you'll be able to do anything - if you just don't have the talent for it, or the spirits just don't like you, you're out of luck. More commonly, people find that they get along with some spirits but with others not so much.

Crowley did say that the Goetic demons were part of the human mind in the introduction to his version of the Goetia, but he backtracked on that later in his life. The manifestation of any particular spirit does have a microcosmic or mental component, but the spirits themselves are macrocosmic entities in their own rights.

People are going to have natural affinities for certain spirits and classes of spirits based on their personalities, just like how you get along with some people and not others. I think it's more complex than a simple positive/negative polarity, though. Goetia didn't seem to work for me, but the Enochian cacodemons are also cthonic/telluric and I have no trouble working with them at all.

Dallan said...


I am very excited with the Enochian system, in the heptarchia I had very strong sensations,
I'm anxious to get started and see how the results will be,
my choice has changed,
I plan to work with the kings to get a job, do you think that's a good choice, scott?
and on Goetia do you accept that I must stop working on this system since it does not produce the results?

Scott Stenwick said...

Yes, that sounds good. The Kings are pretty versatile and can accomplish a lot of different things. In my experience they're fast and effective.

I don't know that I would say you "must" stop working with Goetia. If you're still interested in trying to figure out where the problem lies, you may very well learn something useful from further experimentation.

However, if you're mostly interested in accomplishing practical goals at this point, it probably makes sense to focus on magick that works better for you.

Dallan said...


thank you once again great scott master,
I will dedicate myself to the Enochian system as I have done lately, and I will update you on my enochian experience,
I intend to make one last attempt in Goetia but without expectation because I am ready to abandon this system of magic ... (I think the demons did not like me hahahaha)
on Enochian I wanted you to comment on the angels NANTA, BITOM etc and their evocation forms, the fact is that in google they appear separate tables (probably the golde dawn system) but these names appear in the table also rescence and I would like to understand about these angels
and also ask for a pronunciation for the names of God's great table
Thank you Scott, sorry for asking so many questions.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Scott - regarding your comment about magical power. But doesn't daily practice help in replete the personal magical power? If so, doesn't that apply for any system, including Enochian and Goetia?

Scott Stenwick said...

@Dallan: It is not clear that NANTA, BITOM, and so forth on the Great Table are angels. They are names of the elements, but Dee doesn't provide any conjurations for them. Since they are on the black cross, it also is unclear what you would use as controlling names if you wanted to write your own.

As far as pronunciation goes, pronounce the names mostly like they look. A has an AH sound, E has an EH sound, I has an EE sound, O has an OH sound, and U has an UH sound. So short vowels, with the exception of I which pronounced like a long E. Ignore all the extra Golden Dawn consonants - that's a synthetic system cobbled on after the fact to make the language sound a certain way.

So NANTA = NAHN-TAH and BITOM = BEE-TOHM, for example.

@Dacia: Sure, daily practice helps, but remember that magical power is not like a substance. It's more like a flow. So if you have twenty operations going at once that flow will be divided 20 ways no matter what you do. You can increase your amount of flow over time using daily practice, but if you keep doing operations without time limits the proliferation of processes will rapidly overwhelm that.

Scott Stenwick said...

Oh, reading that over it looks like I misspoke. On the vowels, A, E, and U are short. O is long, and I is pronounced like a long E. I know it seems minor, but it's important to be precise with some of the nonsense on pronunciation you can find on the Internet.

Dallan said...


Thank you so much for answering me, Master Scott !! I learned a lot from you.
At some point have you tried any evocation for NANTA? (just out of curiosity) I have no interest in working with NANTA, I'm just curious
and also if you have used squares of abamelin, if the answer is positive, what method used to activate these squares? could you say something about it?
When it comes to abamelin always, it connects with the SAG
but some people say that squares can be used even without the SAG operation
I also believe that squares could be used without the SAG
and if they really could be activated, they would be a good "substitute" "
for Goetia, for example

Scott Stenwick said...

Even before I published my books, I worked for many years with the original Dee system rather than the GD version. So I haven't tried an evocation of NANTA because Dee is pretty clear that the name doesn't correspond to a particular spirit.

I haven't done any practical work with the Abramelin squares. That's a whole other system that, like the Goetia, has nothing to do with the Enochian system. In theory you could use the Abramelin entities in a similar way to the Goetia, but I don't have any experience doing that aside from what I've read and studied.

Dallan said...

Thank you again Master Scott !!!
his enochian is the best of the present and very precise,
about abramelin I have desire to learn to activate these squares, but it will not be my focus at the moment.
Thank you for your patience and attention :)

Steven Burnside said...

Is there any way of discovering if I have any talent in magick? As I recall you saying, buying equipment doesn't mean I'll be able to do anything. I'd hate to invest a lot of money into this and not be able to get results.

Scott Stenwick said...

I would say that you should try doing magical work without any expensive equipment and see what results you get.

The reason is that the difference between rudimentary equipment that basically fulfills the requirements and really nice, expensive equipment is not as great as the people selling the expensive equipment will tell you. I started out doing Enochian with a small Holy Table about a foot square that I made with a piece of plywood and a wood-burning kit. I still was able to get results.

In my books, I have a lot of suggestions on how to make Enochian equipment on the cheap. If you have a significant amount of talent, you should be able to get some results working with that sort of a setup. Then, once you know it works, you can then look into getting some more expensive pieces to improve your results from there.

Steven Burnside said...

Will do. Thank you for all of your help.

athingdd said...

Scott, do you think it would safe for a beginner (long-time armchair magician) to start with enochian? Or is it better that I have some experience with evoking first? I have no interest in GD-type magic, so I've been thinking about attempting angelic evocations, possibly the arbatel, etc. once I develop my scrying abilities better in order to get my bearings in evocation, but would that be necessary?

Scott Stenwick said...

In my experience Enochian is no more dangerous or difficult than other grimoire systems such the Arbatel. So if what you really want to start with is Enochian, I say go for it. Also, scrying is not necessarily central to Enochian work. I know that there are people who practice it that way, but it's not the only approach. For practical operations and the like, it is not required.

Steven Burnside said...

Do you have any tips on memorizing the LBRB? Also, how essential are the visualizations? I ask the second question because in one of DuQuette's books, I don't recall any mention of them. Granted, this was a book of Goetia.

Scott Stenwick said...

Practice the ritual every day, and learn the words and motions first. The ritual is not that long, and if you do it daily, even from a book, I think you'll be surprised at how quickly you can pick it up.

Once you have those down, start adding the visualizations. That keeps you from having to learn everything at once. The visualizations are important, but the ritual will still have an effect without them and they can be added once you have everything else memorized.

Dacia Pacea said...

@Steven draw a cross on a sheet of paper which you will place in front of you in such a way that you can easily read from it while standing. Write ATAH at the top, MALKUTH at the bottom, VE-GEBURAH to the right, VE-GEDULAH to the left.

Take 4 post-its and place each of them on a wall around your practice space. Write YHVH/YAHWEH on the one in the East, ADONAI on the one in the South, AHIH/EHEIEH on the one in the West, and AGLA on the one in the North.

That way you only need to memorize the motions needed to prerform the QC and to trace the banishing Earth pentagram.

Scott Stenwick said...

If you have the space and can set it up, that is a great way to work on the ritual - basically put up "cheaters" showing how to do the forms to the four directions and at the center. We do something similar at my Tuesday ritual workshops.

For each of the quarters, we hang up a full sheet of paper showing both the pentagram tracing and the name for each direction. We have those for the Lesser Hexagram, too, and the shapes are more important there because they are different at each quarter.

And as a point, I find that even people who aren't that good at memorization can pick up the LRP pretty quickly. It's just not that long, and daily practice for a week or two is usually sufficient - especially if you're doing it more than once per day while you're learning.

Steven Burnside said...

So I'm in the process of creating a table that is a foot. What are some good measurements to use to keep everything symmetrical?

Scott Stenwick said...

The only proportion mentioned in the diaries is that the table is 3 feet, the large sigillum is nine inches, and the smaller sigillums are 4 1/2 inches. With a table that small, I would skip the smaller sigillums and just go with a large one 3-4 inches across, depending on the materials you can find and how you want to make it. I believe 4-inch disks can be found pretty easily at craft stores, not as sure about 3 inch ones. At that size you'll probably want to print out the image of the sigillum and glue it onto the disk, since the lines get pretty tiny, but that should work.

Steven Burnside said...

I'll give that a shot then. Thanks a lot!!

Steven Burnside said...

Is it going to be a problem if the hexagram on the table isn't 100% symmetrical?

Scott Stenwick said...

No, as far as we can tell the hexagram is not supposed to be symmetrical. In all the representations we have, the top and bottom points are smaller than the four other "side" points. Also, it doesn't need to be perfect to work in general. I'm not a great woodworker or artist, so the first table I made wasn't that great from an aesthetic standpoint. It worked, though.

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